Graduate School in China – A History Major’s Perspective

[somethingfunny]

kdavid,

 

It would be great if you have some time to give an update on your progress back in the States.  How is the PhD going?  How easy was it to find a position (and more importantly, funding)?  Did your experience in China help or hinder your application?  How well prepared were you after your study in China?  Do you have an edge over classmates who do not have degrees from Chinese Universities?  Or are you at a disadvantage?

 

I guess the position you're in now will be of even more interest for those considering study in China.

 

Thanks again for writing this thread.  Pretty much the best (and perhaps only?) comprehensive review of Master's History degree study in China.

[kdavid]

Thanks very much for asking for a follow-up. I'm happy to share my experience for the reason you've stated: there doesn't seem to be much (any?) out there! I wish I had this information when I got started many years back.

 

The last year of my life could not have gone more smoothly. Of the dozen or so programs I applied to (PhD and MA), I received five offers. Now that I've gone through my first year, I'm certain that I made the best choice. I won't go into specifics here, but I'm confident that the program (quality of instruction, faculty, academic rigor, etc.) I chose is providing much better training than those I was (and wasn't) accepted to.

 

Your questions:

 

Finding a position/university

 

In order to find the "right" program for you, you need to do a lot of research and networking. Seeing how I had been researching PhD programs for years, I felt that finding the school I ended up at was easy (for me). This might not be the case for someone who hasn't really done their research, or simply doesn't know where to look. Narrowing down the options can be very tedious, so I won't elaborate here unless there's a strong interest.

 

My application

 

Having an MA from a PRC university on my application certainly helped my application. Having spent eight years away from western academia may not have. Additionally, both in regards to historiography and academic rigor, my MA program simply didn't prepare me for what was to come. I was, however, very prepared for my program as I had taken it upon myself to prepare for the program. Had I simply completed the MA curriculum as was, I would have been in a bad position. Aside from being a line on my application, the biggest advantage of completing the MA was that I'm light-years ahead of my peers linguistically. It is unclear, however, how much of this is due to the MA, and how much is due to living in China for eight years, having a Chinese wife, and having had done business there. 

 

Advantages/disadvantages to the HeiDa MA

 

As for advantage/disadvantage, I'd certainly say that the MA alone did not put me in any advantageous position. It was the life experiences I had collected in the nine years between my BA and admission to PhD that has given me an edge not just in the program, but in navigating graduate school. Succeeding in American academia, I've found, has little to do with past credentials and more on organization, self-discipline, work ethic, grit, and people skills. Of course, I've only just completed my first year, and I still have a lot ahead, so it's way too early to say whether or not I'm succeeding, let alone will be successful.

 

Regarding your questions via PM:

 

GRE

 

Yes, I took the GRE. It's required for admission to American graduate programs. I scored just slightly above average, and I believe this put me at a disadvantage during the application process. Most schools have a cut off, and regardless of other aspects of your application, if you fall below that cut off your application is discarded.

 

An example: I thought myself a shoe in for one particular program, but was rejected. This was after extensive conversation with both of the program's graduate advisers, including a phone conversation. I think my application was discarded before it reached their desks because... I took a two-quarter research sequence with one of these professors through an exchange program and he not once broached our previous correspondence. In our various dinners and seminars, he asked a lot about my personal background. When I answered (all things he had heard before), he didn't seem at all familiar with me. The other professor also served as the discussant for my conference paper. Both seemed impressed with my work and were very helpful throughout the entire process.

 

As for my score, had I been in the States where it was more convenient to take the exam, I may have retaken it and tried for a higher score. However, my options were limited in Harbin, and it was extremely inconvenient to take a full day off work (without pay), travel to the university, and sit the exam. Plus it's an expensive exam to take.

 

Most universities list their cut off score, though they may not state it so clearly, on their websites.

 

Funding

 

As for funding, the rule of thumb is to never accept an offer that does not provide full funding. This can be done either by provision of fellowships and grants or by guaranteeing TAships. Just because you get funding, however, does not mean that you should not seek outside funding. Outside funding not only provides (generally) more cash than a university fellowship, but is also an accolade you can use once you're on the job market. I did fairly well in this regard, receiving one fellowship (which I'm currently serving out at Stanford), and three other grants. 

 

Also, "funding" through TAships is good for professional development, but hinders your research, and thus your time to completion. It's better to seek outside funding, especially prestigious fellowships such as Fulbright.

 

I believe this covers all the questions you've asked. I'm happy to discuss this more if there's further interest.

 

In sum, I'd say that the MA alone was only a small contributor to my acceptance, and only a small factor in how things have turned out thus far. Prior to my PhD, I had grown up quite a bit, run a small business, and had a family. I had nine years to mature and decide what I wanted to do with my life. I bring a lot of energy and passion to my PhD because I *love* what I do. I feel that these are the factors that have brought me to where I am, and are the factors that will lead me to where I want to be.

[洋人丹]

KDavid:

 

Just curious, you are doing a PhD in Chinese history right?

 

Could you talk about the average language level of your peers? I'm doing a masters in Classical literature at Fudan, and will for sure continue with my PhdD. I don't know where I'm going to do my PhD, so want to get as much info from as many people as possible, haha. 

 

To give an idea, I will be starting my masters in the fall. I can read Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasty literature no problem, and have read a bunch of literature from those eras. More classical language I can generally read, but still go pretty slow.  Do you think my language level in three years (assuming that my level continues to increase) would be enough for a PhD in the US? I don't have a clear idea of what the level that US PhD students are at...my Chinese has all been self-study, so I have no idea how it compares to students who have actually taken Chinese courses in school.

 

Would have any suggestions on what to focus on language-wise?

 

I'm really into theory and the library at Fudan has pretty much every book that I want to read about theory (lots of books by Lacan, Foucault, Paul De Man, Barthes, Derrida, etc.) I'm really really excited to get to go. Even if classes on methodology aren't that great, I have a whole library at my disposal. Can't wait for school to start. 

[somethingfunny]

Thanks for the update.  I could probably ask questions all day but I'll try and keep them within reason.

 

In addition to 洋人丹's questions, when you say that you are linguistically ahead of your peers, does this include any Chinese colleagues that you have?  I'd have thought that their Chinese and knowledge of Chinese history would be excellent, having learnt it from an early age.  Although they might lack the critical analysis and academic rigour skills that other westerners would have.

 

One thing I am interested in is what level you started at with your PhD.  Did you go in on day one and start from scratch with everyone else, or were you able to sort of say "Well, here is a year-plus worth of research and an MA thesis that I've already written, I'm going to carry on building on top of this."  In other words, do you anticipate being able to finish you PhD in a shorter amount of time having had such a lengthy MA leading into it?  My understanding is that a lot of humanities PhDs in the US (and other countries) start out with a probationary year which is equivalent to a Masters degree.  Surely you've got an edge here...

 

How easy did you find it to network with US academics?  When I did my PhD in the UK it was very easy to meet Professors visiting for talks, make visits to other Universities and attend conferences.  In fact, before choosing where to go for my PhD, I was able to visit a few research groups, have lunch with the professor and then spend several hours talking to different members of the research group.  I'd be interested to know about networking in relation to your search for PhD positions, and also generally in academic, collaborative terms.

[kdavid]

Answers:

 

My PhD

 

Yes, my PhD is in modern Chinese and world history. We're required to have two fields. My major is technically Asian history, with a focus on China, but we do Japan and Korea as well. Due to my interests in juxtaposing Stalinist Russia and Maoist PRC, I'm also doing Russian (language and historiography). My second field is world history, and has helped immensely in how I approach (and answer) research questions.

 

Language Level

 

While having great 口语 gets you a lot of street credit in China, in American academia, it's all about whether or not you can do solid research in that language. To be fair, you can't develop great speaking skills in any language without having spent substantial time in that country. I spent eight straight years speaking Mandarin, so my speaking skills are definitely near-native. I feel very comfortable reading modern texts, and don't struggle too much with late Qing memorials and hybrid 白话、文绉绉 essays. I do, however, still struggle mightily with classical Chinese, another testament to the lack of rigor of my MA.

 

As for my peers, I can't speak to how well they read. Our first quarter we had a documents reading class in which I felt very comfortable. It was clear a few of my peers struggled. As for native speakers, there's no comparison that they're obviously going to excel with documents in their native language.

 

A side note here: for those interested in modern Chinese history, I'd definitely stress learning to read handwritten documents. There are some fantastic sources for historians willing to trudge through handwritten documents, especially for cultural and social history. Handwritten documents are also one-of-a-kind. They're not mass produced, and provide a unique window into a specific topic.

 

Will an MA prepare you for a PhD?

 

I truly believe that you get out of an experience what you put in. If you bust your hump and read tons, you'll be in a good position linguistically. If you coast, then you're doing yourself a disservice. For Yangrendan, I'd say if you can already read classical literature, then you're in a great spot. I have a colleague in East Asian Languages and Literature who did his MA in Taiwan in classical Ming-Qing. He has excellent language skills.

 

How to prepare

 

Two suggestions:

 

1. Start with the end in mind.

 

Know where you want to be in x years time. Make a timeline, set goals, and meet them. If you know you want to be admitted to a PhD working on Tang-Song, then your goal should be to be able to read Tang-Song texts with little difficulty. You should be able to demonstrate in your application that you can hit the ground running research wise. I believe that humanities degrees from the PRC are really the only ones that provide some sort of advantage in western academia. 

 

2. Find a mentor and learn from them.

 

Find someone who is doing now what you want to be doing in the future. Learn how they got to where they are and emulate their path to success.

 

Theory

 

Regarding Yangrendan's mention of theory, I'm not familiar with how those theorists would be applied to classical literature. If you haven't already, pick up a few monographs written by academics you admire and see how they structure their arguments. Part of succeeding in graduate school is emulating (or feigning emulation of) your professors. Some will be very hands on in regards to the path you should take, as well as the speed at which you traverse said path. Some will want you go engage with theory, while others will abhor it. It seems to be the case in Chinese historiography that more scholars than not have not engaged with critical theory (at least in comparison to south Asia). Being theory literate is important, but you should tailor your application and writing sample to the department to which you're applying. If they're big on theory, certainly engage with it. If not, tone it back, at least until you've been admitted.

 

Starting my PhD

 

My department allows MA holders to opt out of the first-year research seminar. As such, I was only required to do the second-year sequence. I chose to do two (and in one year!), however, as I was keen on the exchange program I mentioned above and networking with graduate students on another campus. I'm very glad I did this as I made some great friends who will be strong assets throughout my career.

 

Having completed an MA and a major research project, I had a leg up on the researching/writing process. My first paper, however, was not as strong as my second. The second benefited from going through the process once in American academia, as well as getting great feedback from my advisers. 

 

Probationary first-year

 

The first year is in some ways a probationary period, I suppose. The other individual in my cohort really struggled. She didn't turn in (or complete at all) assignments in on time, was habitually late/absent from class, and overall unprofessional and disrespectful in these regards. From what I've heard, she won't be returning next fall, so there may be some bite to the probationary bark.

 

Networking

 

Like a lot of other issues I've addressed, a great network is not going to fall into your lap. You have to go and seek it out. I have great colleagues at my home university, and made some great friends during the exchange program. I've attended conferences and made it a point to seek out others and hear about their research. Having a compelling topic helps pique interest in you as an individual, but when it comes down to it the most important factor is just being a decent human being. Dress up, act professional, and listen. Be kind and courteous. Offer to help whenever you can: review articles and offer suggestions. Share leads you find. 

 

These latter points I can't stress enough. BE A PROFESSIONAL. Be the best-dressed, hardest-working person in the room, every time. You might win a few enemies this way, but they'll dislike you for all the wrong reasons. You're not going to win everyone over, but you'll win over those that matter.

 

Last note on collaboration: I don't think many graduate students are thinking in these terms at this level. Most people are concerned with their own research, and for good reason. However, you should definitely keep an eye out for those who are working on similar topics as you can network for conference panels, workshops, edited volumes, etc. Once you're established, then you can focus on collaborative writing and research, but this is likely a highly personal decision, as I think most academics prefer to work on their own time table; and rightfully so, they're extremely busy.

[洋人丹]

Thanks for the reply, there is a lot of really good information in there!

 

"As for my peers, I can't speak to how well they read. Our first quarter we had a documents reading class in which I felt very comfortable. It was clear a few of my peers struggled."

 

 

Could I ask for some examples of the documents you read?

 

I don't start for another month, but during the application process I contacted a professor and expressed interest in her research. She said that she would be happy to be my adviser. Her research focuses are pretty much the same period I want to do and also Chinese and Japanese academic history, which is the other thing I want to focus in. I started studying Japanese last year because I really want to compare methodologies and viewpoints of Japanese, Chinese, and American academics. In this sense I feel like I have a good idea of what kinds of things I want to do, and an adviser who has been supportive of me during the application process.

 

THEORY

 

I'm curious of what methodologies (if any) professors taught or discussed in your masters or now during your PhD?

 

Literary theory is just something I'm interested in, and while things like Deconstruction or analysis of discourses in Classical literature are probably things that haven't been done too much (there are apparently some Americans doing things with Cognitive Linguistics and classical philosophy, though I've only done a tiny bit of reading on it), I think it could certainly bring out new viewpoints or discussions. At the same time, my adviser wrote in an introduction letter for my application, that she feels my focus on  literary theory could lead to some interesting things. In that sense, I feel like she sees something in that, and I feel like it is something I might be able to pursue.

 

I am probably completely wrong about this, and this statement will only apply to US universities because I can't speak for unis anywhere else, is that in regards to theory, there simply aren't that many people who research classical literature as it is, and that students of Classical Chinese might not have as much of a focus on literary theory as someone who is doing a degree in English or French literature, for example. 

 

Do you think there is any truth to that?    

 

Sorry this post is long.

[Angelina]

What exactly are you interested in 洋人丹, the history of academics doing literary criticism or you doing the analysis?

[kdavid]

We studied the John Fairbank documents collection, mostly. It was a packet the instructor put together, but largely late Qing with some late Ming in there.

 

As I'm not a literary critic, I can't comment on trends in that field. I'd reconsider your appraisal of the dearth of western academics involved in this field, however, and also what you consider "western." There are many professors born in China, but educated in the US, and subsequently teaching here. I'd imagine they'd rule the roost due to their level of fluency.

 

I can imagine you'd get some pushback applying modern theory to the study of imperial sources, but that's the case with mainland scholars period. They rarely engage with theory. That should NOT, however, discourage you from giving it a try. Just be open to the feedback you receive.

 

As for theory in our department, we're required to take a two-sequence history and theory seminar, which did wonders for how I approach primary sources. We looked at a good chunk of the major theorists and how their ideas have been applied to framing arguments. I've come across some great materials in the last week that I simply would not have thought twice about otherwise. Anyway, we'll see if I can make anything of them....

[Angelina]

Mainland scholars have their own approaches. I studied a little bit of 训诂学. It is more about exegesis than about literary theory here. They are working very hard to make sure they can understand all the old works.

I have read 中国小说略 by 鲁迅 for prose and 诗词格律 by 王力 for poetry. These are basic works people are expected to be familiar with. 胡兰成 is famous as well. Try 中国文学史话. I found him a bit too proud of Chinese culture.

There is a lot of work on 文献.

Basically, the 中文系 is separated from the 外语系 and the Chinese literature department does not have much theory. They have literary criticism too, but I haven't seen any new ideas coming out of China in this field.

[洋人丹]

@Angelina

 

Sorry, I just reread what I wrote and realize it was probably unclear. Apologies.

 

What I mean is two-fold. One, the history of theories of literature and their application to Chinese literature developed in China, Japan, America. Two: the rhetoric, discourse, and biases that exist in all of these and how they effect interpretations of the texts they research.

 

Kdavid:

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I don't think there is a dearth of western academic work in the field. As I mentioned above I was only speaking of American universities, which could hardly be be representative of "western", as if such a term can really be represented in any sense. The second, I was not saying that there isn't a great deal of research going on at American universities. My point was that the number of students getting graduate degrees in Chinese classical literature are much much fewer than those of, for example, English literature. Because of the greater number of students of English literature who are discussing works that already have enormous amounts of scholarship about them, including theoretical debates, and because of the cultural importance and accessibility of something like Shakespeare is much higher in American society than, say 水浒传. A strong feminist critique of the former would create a much larger discussion than one of the latter. It's not because of weakness of American academia, but that cultural importance and accessibility create a larger audience for works about English literature than it would for Classical Chinese lit. Which leads me to...

 

The point about theory. What I meant by the statement above was that because of the accessibility of English literature in American society, there would be many more opportunities to discuss and debate criticisms from a number of different backgrounds (Feminist, Deconstructionist, Psychoanalytic, whatever). The fewer number of students of Classical lit creates fewer opportunities for that kind of discussion on the same scale as English literature. 

 

I wasn't trying to say that they didn't study literary theory, but that it might not focused on or discussed to the same extent as English literature.

 

There might be some errors here but I'm going to go ahead and post, I'll edit if I notice I mangled the English language too seriously. 

 

EDIT: Indeed, I did butchered me some English. I is good at righting.

[洋人丹]

@Angelina

 

Just saw your new post

 

I have read 鲁迅's and some other works by 王力 but haven't read the one you mentioned, so I'll have to grab it. 

 

I may very well get resistance from using theoretical frameworks or focusing on discourse or other things. Guess I'll have to wait and see.

[stapler]

It might be because American and Chinese PhDs are different from what I'm familiar with, but no one has mentioned anything about what their actual research project might be. Isn't this the most important part of a PhD? And don't professors want to know what you're actually going to be arguing, demonstrating, analysing etc? Not just what 'field' you're interested in?

[kdavid]

Isn't this the most important part of a PhD? And don't professors want to know what you're actually going to be arguing, demonstrating, analysing etc? Not just what 'field' you're interested in?

 

 

Absolutely, and this is part of the tedious process of finding the university and faculty that provide the best "fit" for you as a scholar.

 

I don't think this has been broached as it doesn't pertain to our general discussion on how a degree from a PRC university contributes to one's competitiveness in American academia.

[realmayo]

I wasn't trying to say that they didn't study literary theory, but that it might not focused on or discussed to the same extent as English literature.

 

洋人丹, without knowing anything about the specifics my hunch is that you must be right. I'd assume that most people doing a Chinese literature PhD will have spent so much of their time studying the language as a foreign language that it didn't leave much space to develop the skills that, say, an English native-speaking undergraduate would have developed studying English literature at university. When I look for writing in English about Chinese poetry the majority seems far more interested in reconstructing rhyme schemes rather than how/why a piece of writing works on a reader. Yes that's from the 『practical criticism』 angle rather than the 『literary criticism』 angle which I've never really loved but I think it makes sense that they'd both apply.

[Chris Two Times]

kdavid,

 

This is a fantastic thread that you've begun (spanning more than three and a half years!) and it is an excellent primary source (haha! see what I did there?) for those of us who may be considering similar endeavors.

 

I am thinking about heading in the other direction: I did an M.A. in a field that I love in a program that I am highly appreciative of at a top U.S. university (I am a U.S. citizen). I would love to return to that institution to begin doctoral studies but they are lean on funding doctoral students, at least initially. I told myself I wouldn't pay for a doctorate and I plan to stick to that.

 

Engaging in doctoral studies at a mainland China university has crossed my mind. I have a university, program, and advisor all in mind. I am collecting as much information as possible about this at the moment; naturally that is a big first step in this process.

 

This thread is quite insightful and allows one to see things that one previously didn't see. I am extremely grateful to you and everyone else for taking the time to contribute to it. Many, many thanks!

 

Good luck in your doctoral studies! Your story is a shining example to the rest of us of setting a goal and then doing what it takes to go after that goal.

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[kdavid]

I'm glad you've found this helpful.

 

I'd strongly discourage you from doing a PhD in the mainland, especially if your only reason is funding.

 

A PhD from any American university will always provide more job opportunities. If you have an MA, and it was from a reputable program, you can likely get a fully-funded offer somewhere. Add strong GRE's, good recommendations, and a somewhat concise research trajectory and I'll think you'll have plenty of options. You may have to TA for a good part of the time, but it's better than getting into debt.

 

A PhD from a mainland university will not help you at all in an already over-saturated and very competitive American job market. Likewise, mainland universities may look down on you for having not done it in the US.

 

There are a host of other reasons I could get into, many of which I've touched on in here. Suffice it to say that you'll have more opportunities world-wide with an American degree. Not to mention vastly superior training and a much wider network.

[Chris Two Times]

kdavid,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

I do believe that I could get a fully-funded offer somewhere (from at least a somewhat reputable U.S. program). The "interesting" idea to do the PhD at a Mainland university (even a supposedly "top-notch" one) has crossed my mind, but at the end of the day, I've decided to just keep it at that...an idea. Your words help me keep that notion on the idea side and not attempt to bring it into reality.

 

I would want to return to the Mainland as a visiting scholar and do some work here from time to time. Having a home base in the States with regular trips to China seems ideal to me. What you mentioned also occurred to me: doing the PhD in a Mainland program may actually (most likely) be looked down upon by other Mainland universities. I presume they would prefer someone with a U.S. PhD.

 

Agreed, doing the PhD at a Mainland university, for me, should not be an option.

 

Serving as a TA or a research assistant would be no problem for me and I expect that's what I could be offered. I agree, better than going back into debt.

 

Thank you once again for your excellent posts. They are most appreciated. Once again, continued good luck in your doctoral studies!

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[Angelina]

People everywhere in the world appreciate quality. I don't think that anyone will look down upon you for doing your PhD in China, but it might be easier for you to get a tenure-track job one day (China included) if you choose a U.S. university over a Chinese university simply because of the quality of training. It is better to look at each program individually and decide to go for the best one. Maybe you can find a good one in China, keep your options open.

I don't think anyone will hire you just because you did your PhD in the States, they would look at your experience. Probably doing a PhD in the U.S. will give you the opportunity to learn. However, it is better to choose a program where you will learn the most, not a program in a country that is famous for high quality higher education, even if you end up in such a country- that should not be your starting point. What if you can't find a good thesis advisor in the U.S.? Maybe the only person that can help you with the specific project you have in mind is working in China? I would not rule out China.

I am also trying to find a PhD program to apply. My top priority is finding a thesis advisor and deciding upon a good idea for a PhD thesis. The environment is important too. I have been looking at Europe and Singapore as well. Maybe I will stay in China.

[kdavid]

Two quick issues I'd like to raise here regarding choosing between a US and Chinese institution for graduate studies.

 

1. Resources.

 

Yes, you'll be closer to primary sources in China. However, most institutions will be largely bereft of reliable access to secondary English-language literature. While there are many excellent Chinese scholars in the PRC, the best scholarship, hands down, is published in English. Most institutions in the US participate in library loan programs, so even if your specific institution doesn't have what you need, they can get it from somewhere else. This includes Chinese-language sources.

 

2. Funding.

 

I'm not talking just about tuition funding, but grants and fellowships. As a student at a Chinese university, you will be ineligible for competitive fellowships such as the ACLS, SSRC, and Fulbright grants. These are not just chunks of cash, but prestigious awards that make you competitive on the job market.

[Angelina]

1. Resources.

Yes, you'll be closer to primary sources in China. However, most institutions will be largely bereft of reliable access to secondary English-language literature. While there are many excellent Chinese scholars in the PRC, the best scholarship, hands down, is published in English. Most institutions in the US participate in library loan programs, so even if your specific institution doesn't have what you need, they can get it from somewhere else. This includes Chinese-language sources.

Things have changed. I have found enough English-language literature. Publishers even have events where they promote their books (in English), we can choose any book we like, then the university buys it.

I have posted some info on CNKI, CALIS, CASHL.

Where do international students have better access to funding (research grants)? The U.S. has more experience with international students, probably the U.S. Are there any restrictions for international students?

I have to say the best place is Denmark when it comes to money.

Not only are PhD students legally seen as employees and on a salary, they also have paid maternity/paternity leave. Even if I don't choose Denmark, this sounds like a great idea. At least for women.