江湖

[dwq]

This word recently got some attention in the news since Peking University asked for its translation in an entrance interview.

江湖英譯 考倒尖子港生

I think it is quite difficult to translate in a few words, especially when it is required that "the translation should make Westerners understand its Chinese social/cultural background"; any good ideas?

[brilight]

As a native Chinese speaker, I even don't understand 江湖英譯

[imron]

I think 郭芙蓉

.

[muirm]

I think 郭芙蓉

.

I just knew you were going to cite that definition, imron

I think 江湖 is kind of similar in scope/romanticization to the Wild West. Maybe the Wild East? Or how about the Kung Fu Frontier?

[crystal123]

how to explain＂有人的地方就有江湖＂and ＂相濡以沫，不如相忘于江湖＂

I don't know how to say it in english.

Thanks

[Kenny同志]

The video is no longer available Imron.

[imron]

Have updated the link to one that currently works.

[Kenny同志]

Thanks for the update.

[laohu489]

What exactly does 江湖 mean in 武侠 novels and movies? I guess it means something like 'a warriors life' or 'kill or be killed', but I am not entirely clear. All my usual dictionaries fail me on this point.

[imron]

Merged.  See post #3 for answer.

[renzhe]

The problem with 江湖 is not only that there is no easy definition, but also that it means so many things in so many contexts.

At the basic level, it is a slightly magical version of ancient China, where skilled warriors roam. All 武侠 stories take place there. Conceptually a bit like the Chinese wild west or the world from fantasy novels.

[roddy]

Allow me to demonstrate that I read books: 

 

Guobin Yang's* The Power of the Internet in China quotes John Hamm's Paper Swordsmen: 

 

The world of the Rivers and Lakes constitutes an activist alternative to the "hills and woods" (shanlin) of the traditional Daoist or Confucianist recluse, equally removed from the seats of power but not content with quiet cultivation. The marginal terrain of the Rivers and Lakes, the creation of an alternative sociopolitical system, and the bandits' chivalric imperative to "carry out the Way on Heaven's behalf" (ti tian xing dao) all harbor a potential threat to the established order, traditionally conceptualized as comprehensive, hierarchic and exclusively sanctioned by divine authority. 

 

I think the contrast with 山林 is interesting, not something I'd heard before, but it gives us a more complete worldview. We can say what it isn't, at least. 

 

*I know it's the wrong way round, but that's what he seems to use. 

[gato]

Nice fine, Roddy.

Just confirmed through Baidu that the term used with 山林 is 山林隐士, which can be contrasted with 江湖侠客.

[renzhe]

Yeah, that's great.

江湖 is often used for contrast, either to 山林 like roddy points out, or to the ivory tower, as gato pointed out in an older thread.

In fact, in many wuxia novels, the main character ends up leaving the safety of their home, or their master, to roam the 江湖 and gather their own experiences and grow as a person and a warrior. It is a vast and dangerous place, but also full of opportunities, and it carries this romantic connotation of travelling heroes and adventures from long-gone times.

In Europe, we might think of medieval knights or rebels instead (e.g. Robin Hood). In North America, people might think of cowboys or frontier explorers.

[roddy]

Ah well, if we're going to be handing out praise...

 

Yang's interested in the idea of Rivers and Lakes as one of the ways people think about online space - there's as public space like a town square or marketplace; as a place of family and home - solidarity, belonging; and Rivers and Lakes - "a world of freedom, adventure and justice, but also of intrigue and betrayal."

 

He also quotes Sima Qian defining the 侠: "Their words were always sincere and trustworthy, and their actions always quick and decisive. They were true to what they promised, and without regard to their own persons, they would rush into dangers threatening others." Parse that last clause as you will. 

 

Another Hamm quote: Rivers and Lakes is "structured around a fundamental opposition between the forces of good and the forces of evil"

 

From the conclusion to this chapter, "LIke the Internet, Chinese society is becoming Rivers and Lakes, where the weakening of institution, culture, and community appears to be leading to a state of lawlessness, where citizens are increasingly called upon, as martial-arts heroes once were, to restore trust, justice, and morality. The challenges are as evident as the urgency."

 

Makes me want to climb up onto the roof of the pub down the road. 

 

This is all from Chapter 7 of the book, Utopian Realism in Online Communities. The book is discussed a little here.