Married to Chinese woman, no university degree, how can I work in China?

[pr4n444]

I have a rather difficult situation with my visa.

I'm 30 and just got married to a Chinese woman. We just after we married, she became pregnant. Around the same time, she quit her job because it was a 2+ hour commute each way from home. So now that she's pregnant, we've decided that she shouldn't start job hunting until after the baby is born.

I don't have a university degree, but I've been trying to find a job teaching English. (I'm an American, native speaker). I've found out that now in Sichuan, you need both a bachelor's and an TEFL certificate. I can get the TEFL cert in 1-2 months (about a 100-120 hour online course is accepted by MoE), but getting a bachelor's degree will definitely take more time.

From what I understand, when married I can get a permanent resident visa that is basically the same as an L visa, meaning I can't work. But it seems like it's impossible to get a Z visa....is this correct?

I've also looked into trying to get an F-visa and working with that, but it seems that I can only get unstable, part-time work, and it's also a bit too risky because it's illegal, even though there are a lot of foreigners that do this.

So what are my options? How am I going to support my new family?

Thanks for any advice. I hope for quick replies.

[chinadude2006]

This is a problem many spouses of Chinese nationals face because of the lack of any kind of spousal visa being introduced. Hopefully they will rectify this in the near future.

As for now you only have two options, option one, while tecnically illegally, you could work on your L visa which is valid for a year and can be renew every year. Chances of getting caught are slim, and really what do they expect people to do in this situation. Option two is too make your own degree up, nobody is going to check, obviously there are moral and ethnical issues with this. But hey a man has to support his family somehow.

[thechamp]

I have done two very casual English teaching jobs in China. Teaching kids on a Friday and Sunday afternoon. I am a graduate but I was never asked to show any proof of that. Perhaps it's because they were casual and not too many hours, but my advice would be get a few different part time gigs, as people don't seem to be too bothered about documentation etc if you're only teaching a few hours a week

[xianhua]

So what are my options? How am I going to support my new family?

If the situation is this serious then would you entertain the possibility of moving back to your native country together? From the way you wrote 'just' twice at the beginning it would appear she is not yet at a stage in pregnancy which would prevent flying.

You may well have a career to return to in the US as well.

In every case of a Chinese mother having a child abroad I have known, the mothers-mother (or fathers-mother) from China was present. Therefore, she may want the same and you may need to look into parental sponsorship visa issues. One other factor to consider is the fact that the majority of Chinese babies are born by caesarean, but in the case of the UK for example, caesarean deliveries will only be given if medically necessary, and not by request.

[kdavid]

While many schools in China may ask for a degree and a TESOL, neither are "required" *for employment*. While they may be required for a Z visa, many schools get around this by submitting fake documents on the teacher's behalf, or by having relationships with the officials who issue the visa documents. This is not uncommon. So, getting a Z visa and resident permit is still a real possibility if you find the right school.

The truth is that the demand is too high for many schools to be picky.

You're American, and young, which already gives you 2/3. At the risk of sounding superficial, but very Chinese, if you're also white, then you've got 3/3.

Yes, a degree and TESOL will give you many more options, but what many schools, albeit not the better ones, really want, is a young, white foreigner to teach young learners.

If you're looking into staying in China long-term, and raising your family here, I'd recommend a TESOL. I'd also recommend looking into getting a Western degree online. If you continued teaching while also doing a degree part-time, by the time you finish your degree, you'll have a lot of teaching experience. With several years of experience, a TESOL, and a degree, you'll have many doors open for you.

Good luck, and congratulations on the pregnancy!

[Matty]

I had a friend who had a workmate whose school submitted a fake degree in Hangzhou, later they found out and he was blacklisted from working in Hangzhou ever again. He did actually have a degree but the school submitted a fake one, beaurocracy won. - No idea how they found out, especially after months of working.

You could also try getting a scholarship to get a Bachelor degree here in China, and do some tutoring on the side (yes, illegal, but what are your options?). This way in the end at least you would have a degree. My only concern here is that I'm uncertain if there is any requirement on where your degree was obtained.

You could make a phone call and ask the PSB - don't visit, they might remember your face and it could give you difficulties in the future.

[Sam1]

I see English teaching jobs advertised from time to time on different ESL forums where they state a degree is not necessary. Dave's ESL Cafe, ESL Tiger, Teach Abroad China, China Splash, Recruit 4 China - all good and all have had something like what you are seeking. You are actually in a good position because you are already in China. Good luck.

[WestTexas]

You are already in China, right? Did I read your post correctly?

IMO teaching in China is not the job you want if you have a family. Even for people with a degree, the money is not very good. Not to mention you won't have access to good healthcare here. The only real upward mobility you have as an English teacher is to teach at other schools which might pay more. And those schools aren't going to hire someone with no degree. Costs of living are rising all the time in this country, but the salaries for English teachers, at least at low-end schools, have stayed the same for several years. In five years low-end English teachers are going to be making less than the waitresses here. This is not a career path you want to go down with a child on the way.

You mention getting a TEFL - doesn't this cost something like 2k USD? 2K USD is over 2 months salary for a lower-level English teacher in China. If you are tight on cash you might want to save your money for now.

Having said that...

In the northeast I've met many people working here with no degree, who have legit Z-visas and residence permits in their passport. I do not know how, but it's not that uncommon. I've met at least 5-6 people like this. Sichuan is even less developed than the northeast, and so I would think that regulations there are even more lax. If you have been in China awhile you should already know that they don't really enforce most laws strictly. Look around and you should be able to find something, though you won't be able to be picky about salary, location, or working hours.

[kdavid]

In five years low-end English teachers are going to be making less than the waitresses here.

I agree with this. When I came to China in 2006, making ~5,000 RMB/month was something which many locals gawked at. Now, six years later, it seems people hardly bat an eyelash.

Teaching ESL in China is a great short-term plan to get some experience abroad and fund your travels, but I wouldn't plan on living my life as an English teacher.

The only people who will make decent money long-term are those with MAs in Education from good Western universities working in international schools. People with the same qualifications and experience could also get a good job as DOS of a big chain.

[jasoninchina]

Two years ago, I bought a large whiteboard and started teaching seven students in my home. A month later, I rented a studio apt. and that number doubled. A year later, I had about twenty five students, divided into small classes of 2-5 kids. Next week, I finally move into a new, six-classroom school. I'm up to about 50 students, and have never advertised. Word of mouth has been good to me.

I really don't understand why people are so eager to work for others when the opportunity to be self employed is so readily available. I had very little exp. when I started, but I learned. My wife helped me organize the classes as first, but in time I was able to hire an assistant. Networking has been very important, and is the key to getting your name out there. If you are personable, patient, and willing to learn and grow as a teacher, I would definitely recommended teaching privately. Start slow and learn the trade. Even after two years, I'm still learning new things. I never intended to become an English teacher (or a business man, for Christ's sake) but I am better for it and it certainly puts the bacon on the table.

[edelweis]

@jason: but what of the legal aspect of things? what kind of visa do you have? is your business official or hidden?

[liuzhou]

I really don't understand why people are so eager to work for others when the opportunity to be self employed is so readily available

But illegal.

If you are happy to be an illegal immigrant, then good luck.

[roddy]

Not a fun situation to be in. I'd

a) start looking for English tutoring work - doing a few part-time hours for private schools, private lessons, that kind of thing. Unlikely anybody is going to ask you for a degree doing that, and it'll get some money coming in.

b) get yourself a degree. Under the circumstances, I don't think anyone would blame you for putting speed of graduation over quality of education. How that's going to work alongside supporting your family - well, like I said, not a fun situation.

c) start thinking about what you actually want to do in China. If you're happy teaching English, fair enough - it's decent money, there's plenty of work, and play your cards right and it can be an actual career. But the longer you teach English the harder it'll get to do anything else.

[bad_dream_house]

I don't think being self employed is necessarily illegal - nor would it make you an illegal immigrant

[icebear]

I don't think being self employed is necessarily illegal - nor would it make you an illegal immigrant

That's what every illegal immigrant bullheadedly may assume. The fact is if you are generating regular income (particularly from an operation as large as 6 classrooms!) while on a tourist or spouse visa, or even an F visa, you are violating the terms of your visa. That's not to mention illegality associated with tax evasion.

I'm not saying its the most illegal thing you could do in China - plenty do it and live peacefully. But that doesn't change the fact that it is in fact illegal and it could land you in a heap of trouble.

[bad_dream_house]

I'm not disputing what you are saying, you are right of course in that what you describe is illegal and could land you in trouble. What I meant was that being self employed is not necessarily illegal, I think what Jasoninchina was getting at was that there are alternatives to working for a school, and I would also point out that he never made any reference to being on any specific visa or evading taxes! If the OP is looking at how he can support his family perhaps starting a business could be an option, doesn't even need to be teaching English, there may be many things he could consider. Plus, while this may be illegal on his current visa, I think describing someone who might be doing a bit of tutoring on the side as an "illegal immigrant" is both a little harsh and a bit self-righteous, at worst you are in breach of your visa conditions - not an illegal immigrant. If you had a foreign student in the UK who was tutoring for a few hours on the side - and not paying National Insureance on the money - would you describe them as an "illegal immigrant"?

[icebear]

If you had a foreign student in the UK who was tutoring for a few hours on the side - and not paying National Insureance on the money - would you describe them as an "illegal immigrant"?

If someone entered the US on a tourist visa and then worked regularly, either under the table or using falsified documents (SSN), they would be considered pretty illegal. This guys situation definitely won't be a few hours on the side - its got to be enough to support a family. In that case I think he's better off finding steady employment as a teacher which will definitely get him a working visa, and then if he needs to he can supplement with a few hours tutoring on the side at higher rates. Just my thoughts.

[thechamp]

Do you know what I would do in your position?

Try and get a job as a prep chef or a kitchen porter in a halfway decent Sichuan style restaurant. Learn to cook Sichuan style food, then move back home and try and set up a restaurant with your new found skills! Yes lots of Chinese are already doing it - but the cool thing is you'd be a local making authentic foreign food! you could probably describe dishes better than most overseas Chinese and you'd almost certainly have better hospitality skills. It would be way more interesting than the tedium of teaching English (repeating baby talk over and over again)

[jasoninchina]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sidetrack the conversation. I was simply trying to illustrate how one might start one's own business. Down here in Hainan (I'm not sure if the rules vary from province to province), a person can earn up to 4800 RMB before they need to pay taxes. That's a fair chunk of change. And since he'll have a spousal visa, I don't think they'll be anything illegal about it. Of course, I don't have the facts about other provinces. I do know that private tutoring is a great way to earn a bit of extra cash.

For the record, I am a completely legal resident of China.

[变形金刚]

If someone entered the US on a tourist visa and then worked regularly, either under the table or using falsified documents (SSN), they would be considered pretty illegal. This guys situation definitely won't be a few hours on the side - its got to be enough to support a family. In that case I think he's better off finding steady employment as a teacher which will definitely get him a working visa, and then if he needs to he can supplement with a few hours tutoring on the side at higher rates. Just my thoughts.

Yes this person would be considered illegal, but I would just like to point out that the US is full of illegal immigrants. Whatever the law says, the reality is that they are in fact an important part of the USA economy, and we can argue that the government is actually very tolerant of illegal immigrants. There is currently discussion about enacting immigration reform that would give many of these illegal immigrants citizenship, in addition to legislation that would give their (also illegal) children benefits like in state college tuition. This is probably driven by the numerous industries and lobbying groups that lobby in their favor.

In China, the reality is that there are many foreigners working or trying to do business here on F/X/L visas. Everybody knows this (including the government), and for now this is just part of the way the system works. If you want to make assumptions about this guy and then criticize him over the internet based on these assumptions, that is fine...but comparing this situation to illegal workers in the USA is not a very good way to make your point