Dialects/languages in Yunnan

[ansileran]

Hi everyone !

I'm planning a trip to Yunnan next year (as a tourist, nothing more) and planning to go to some remote areas (at least, they seem remote to me). I'll spend about a month in the "southern parts" of Yunnan. Here is the itinerary outline

- Kunming

- Jianshui

- Honghe (not the prefecture, the town that is west of Yuanyang)

- Lüchun

- Xishuangbanna

- Dehong / Ruili

- Tengchong

- Nujiang + Dulongjiang (as in the valley, not Nujiang / Liuku city)

- Dali & Erhai

and back home. Yes, I know, I miss a lot not going further north but this will be for a second trip in september ^^.

Writing it like this, it seems fairly standard... But I'll be alternatively biking/hiking and taking buses. I intend on visiting small villages to learn more about the minorities living there. A few questions as such :

1) How likely am I to find myself in a place where no one can speak Mandarin ?

2) Apart from Mandarin, what dialects should I focus on ? I read that Dai is pretty much lingua franca in Xishuangbanna, is that true ?

3) I consider it basic courtesy, when visiting a place, to learn at least a few words of the language (e.g. "Hi", "bye", "thank you", "please", "where is ... ?"...). Any insight on how to learn minorities' dialects beforehand ? What I found on the web so far is pretty useless, it's only from a "compared linguistics" perspective...

4) Some dialects are said to be close to some "easier to learn" (at least to find material for) languages : Dai to Thai for example. Would learning some Thai (or other languages) be useful ?

Thank you very much !

[abcdefg]

If I were doing it, I would rely on Mandarin and not try to learn local dialects for the purposes of a trip lasting a month. I don't think you are likely to find yourself in a place where nobody speaks Putonghua. The dialects in several of those places (like west Yunnan and south Yunnan) are not mutually intelligible.

Once you get to a place, if you want to find a local to coach you in how to say a few words of greetings and so on in the local dialect, that can be done. You could learn some Kunminghua in advance with a tutor over Skype. Not sure how to tackle the others.

[ansileran]

Kunminghua can probably be done, I think one of the girls at the language exchange last week was from Kunming... Perhaps even Dai, as it is one of the most documented dialects in the area. If they don't understand each other from one village to another though...

I met quite a few people (and am one of them to some extend) that get mad if you don't at least try to talk to them in their own (local) language ("Hi ! Do you speak English ?" in whatever language) before switching to English / "official" language (happened to me in Barcelona : people would be mad if adressed in Spanish). Heard of this happening in China ? Apart from Cantonese speaking areas ?

[abcdefg]

Heard of this happening in China ?

I understand your concern and it does reflect a high level of cultural awareness and cultural sensitivity. But I've traveled a lot here and never had anybody visibly take offense that I did not try to use their dialect. That was even true in Fujian (Minhua) and Guangdong (Cantonese.) They seemed glad I was at least not trying to talk to them in English.

Edit: I must admit that I have not gone as far off the beaten track as you intend to go, such as into very small and remote villages by bicycle and on foot.

[siledouyaoai]

Yunnan dialect is actually quite easy to understand as dialects go. I find I can understand Dali, Lijiang, Zhaotong and Qujing dialects ok, but in the south it can be a bit difficult (I find Pu'er dialect is one of the harder dialects to understand in Yunnan). Anyhow, it's very unlikely that you'll be somewhere where no one can speak Han dialect, as even if there aren't many Han around, villagers will almost certainly have to communicate with members of other ethnic minorities. If spoken slowly, you should at least be able to conduct a simple conversation with people speaking Han dialect.

I should add dialects of minority languages can have significant regional variation, sometimes to the point that they may not be mutually intelligible. I remember a 壮族 telling me that he speaks to some other 壮族 in Han dialect, as they can't understand each other's 状 dialect. I've learnt many words in local languages, only for many people not to understand in other areas (that might be a reflection of my bad pronunciation though)

[anonymoose]

1) How likely am I to find myself in a place where no one can speak Mandarin ?

Very unlikely. You may well meet some people, particularly of the older generation, who cannot speak mandarin, but every young person will be able to speak mandarin. Also, in the larger cities, especially Kunming, han people are still in the majority, and naturally speak mandarin (even if it is of a regional variety).

2) Apart from Mandarin, what dialects should I focus on ? I read that Dai is pretty much lingua franca in Xishuangbanna, is that true ?

Most languages of the ethnic minority groups are not really dialects, or at least, not of mandarin. Dai is a dialect of Thai. Whilst Dai is widely spoken in Xishuangbanna, I wouldn't call it a lingua franca. In Jinghong (the main city in Xishuangbanna), there is still a sizeable non-Dai population, and mandarin is prevalent. As you go into the country, minority languages are more exclusively used, but you should realise that whilst the Dai have the largest population there, there are also many other minorities such as Hani, Bulang, Jinuo and so on who all have their own languages. And these ethnic groups tend to reside in their own villages, so there may be a Dai village speaking Dai and just a few hundred metres away a Bulang village speaking their language. In practice, I'm not sure how they communicate with each other, but I suspect either some of them have learnt each other's languages, or they just use mandarin. So whilst it is a nice idea in theory to learn some phrases you could use, firstly, as you have already discovered, resources for learning such things are practically non-existent, and secondly, for it to be effective, you have to be able to recognise the ethnicity of the people you meet.

3) I consider it basic courtesy, when visiting a place, to learn at least a few words of the language (e.g. "Hi", "bye", "thank you", "please", "where is ... ?"...). Any insight on how to learn minorities' dialects beforehand ? What I found on the web so far is pretty useless, it's only from a "compared linguistics" perspective...

As I said above, practically speaking, this isn't really possible. I've been to Yunnan a couple of times, and have also been interested by these things, but even in China, finding such resources is almost impossible. I have found a couple of books on Dai grammar, but unless you have accompanying audio, these are really useless for actually learning to say anything.

4) Some dialects are said to be close to some "easier to learn" (at least to find material for) languages : Dai to Thai for example. Would learning some Thai (or other languages) be useful ?

I don't know how close Dai is to Thai, but there is a difference. I think Dai speakers are often able to understand Thai from exposure, whereas Thai people may not be able to understand Dai. (At least that is how the difference between Laotian and Thai is explained, and as far as I know, Dai is closer to Laotian.) In terms of how "useful" it would be, well, as I explained above, it is not useful beyond just doing it for the sake of interest.

[liuzhou]

As in most parts of China, people, (especially) younger educated people speak their local dialect or language at home and a version of putonghua / Mandarin at work or school. 15 years ago, I travelled in the area you outline and never had a problem only speaking Mandarin.

The places you mention aren't that remote. In fact, they are quite touristy (some very much so). The locals are well abe to deal with putonghua speaking Chinese visitors from all over.

[fanglu]

1) How likely am I to find myself in a place where no one can speak Mandarin ?

I agree with others that you're unlikely to find anywhere where there is no one who can speak mandarin. However, in small (particularly minority) villages where everyone who is not either very old or very young has left to work or study you may find most people do not speak it and possibly can't even understand it.

I read that Dai is pretty much lingua franca in Xishuangbanna

Mandarin is much more a lingua franca than Dai, but you're right about Thai. My (pretty dreadful) Thai was understood by Dai people. Having said that, unless you speak good Thai, Mandarin is going to be much easier and is very widely spoken in Xishuangbanna.

[ansileran]

Thanks for your answers !

I think there might have been a misunderstanding for some, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The places I mention are just to indicate the general area. I'm planning a 35~40 days trip and stating every small village I intend to go to would have been too long (and probably no one would have known where those villages are) so I just gave the main cities.

For example, I plan on cycling south of Lüchun to the border before heading west to Jiangcheng. To get to Xishuangbanna (not Jinghong, I haven't planned on going to the city so far), I hope to take a bus in the direction of Mengla (勐腊县) and step off at Manla (曼腊彝族瑶族乡) and heading west toward Xiangming (象明彝族乡), before continuing to Jinuo Shan (基诺山). Oh, and I'm cycling part of the way from there to Ruili, at least until Cangyuan, perhaps even Zhengkang. And I won't be taking the main road... So maybe I'm mistaken and these places are now used to tourists, but they seemed to me like some remote villages in France where there are only elderly people (not even children as there isn't much work there) and they still speak in dialects which are very hard, if even possible, to understand. Sometimes they don't even understand French at all...

I'll need to be able to ask direction, ask for a place to eat or to sleep, at the very least. While I have no doubt that in the main cities I'll find people who speak Mandarin, I'm mostly afraid that I'll find myself in a small village in the middle of the day, with two roads going out, and only children or elderly to ask where to go, as fanglu said (GPS might help, but mine tends to get confused in the most annoying places). I had a Cantonese speaking friend who told me that in his village, during the day, there were only people who only spoke Cantonese...

I might be able to learn some Dai as there is learning material on the net (though not much) and I remember seeing learning videos on youtube. I won't delude myself into thinking I can learn Dulong before getting there and won't try to since I'll be hiring a guide for this part of the trip. Nu and Lisu, while interesting, will also be of very limited use, as would be Bai (except as basic courtesy...). In fact, it's Xishuangbanna (and west of it, can't remember if it's Lincang or Lancang prefecture) that I'm most worried about.

I've listed the minorities I'm most likely to encounter there, the language spoken and the writing system, tell me if I'm mistaken :

Dai - Dai language (5 kinds ?) - Dai script

Bulang - Bulang language - Dai script or Han caracters

Hani - Hani language - not written

Jinuo - Jinuo language - Han characters

Lahu - Lahu language - ?

Wa - Wa language (4 kinds ?) - ?

Yi - Yi language - ?

[skylee]

Consider communicating in written Chinese.

[anonymoose]

Have you been to this part of China before? It sounds like a very exciting trip that you are planning. I don't know much about cross-country cycling, but from my experience in Yunnan, you might find the roads not very suitable for cycling. When I first went there about 6 years ago, even many of the main roads were pot-holed mud tracks, although they were constructing new roads at the time. When I went back a couple of years ago, it seemed that the roads had improved somewhat between the larger towns, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of those between villages are still just mud tracks. I don't know if that's a problem for the kind of cycling you intend to be doing.

Dai script seems to be used fairly extensively on signposts (in Jonghong; in the country there aren't many signposts, but Dai script is used on temples and so on), but as far as I know, not many people actually know how to read it. I went to a couple of bookshops in Xishuangbanna to see if I could find any Dai materials, but it seems that almost nothing is printed in Dai. I purchased a Dai book off Taobao, but as a quick search will show, there is extremely little in Dai, and what there is tends to have been printed 20 or more years ago.

As for the other minority languages, I suspect the situation is even more dire.

[ansileran]

No, I haven't been to this part of China before, only been reading everything I can find about it for a year or so and talked about it with people who travelled there. I think I'm going to find that Yunnan is much more modern than I expect though, even in remote places. Well, doesn't matter, it's better to prepare for the worse (or best, depending on how we look at it) and find that things are easier than expected.

Mud tracks are fine by the way, this is what I'm planning for. I'll be travelling with an old, very sturdy, steel mountain bike and bare necessities only. If I could, I would have booked a custom trip with local guides, but it's much too expensive for me so I'll stick to my "backpacker's" ways.

[liuzhou]

Certainly don't waste time learning to write in any of the minority languages unless you have a particular interest in the arcane. The scripts are hardly known at all outside of rarefied circles in very few universities.

I live in the centre of the largest minority in China - the Zhuang. Nearly everyone I know speaks Zhuang as their first language. 98% are also fluent in putonghua.

Local government buildings all have bilingual signs - Chinese characters and Zhuang script. I have never met anyone who can read it, never mind write it.

A few years ago I was asked by a Beijing company to help translate a short sentence into Zhuang. (They wanted an advertising slogan mimicking the languages on Chines banknotes.) I had no problem finding people who could say it in Zhuang, but it took weeks to track down the one retired professor in Guangxi Minorities' University who was able to translate it. But as far as I or anyone else knows, he could have just made it up for a laugh.

Most minority languages are like most world languages. Oral only. The scripts have usually been imposed from above.

[realmayo]

Presumably you've seen the crazyguyoneabike.com site? Here are journals of people who have cycled through Yunnan: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/locales/?locale_id=1801566&doctype=journal

And here's a very long list of bike-vocab: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1&page_id=270538&v=7Q

I dream of doing some similar cycling myself one day.

[ansileran]

Yes, I have seen this site and other too...

Actually, I'm not really dreaming of cycling anywhere (well, except this little ecologist in me that keep screaming everytime I take a cab) but I am practical : if I want to go somewhere remote and do not want to be part of a large group (and do not want to spend half a year's earnings on it), a bike is the best way (I can't drive, so no car renting)...

[realmayo]

Ah I see. Well, people on bikes certainly seem to end up seeing a lot of where they're journeying though, in addition to where they're going to, which can't be a bad thing!