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andre.balian

Help with character, contains these radicals: 月西女

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andre.balian

Hi. I'm trying to find this character in the dictionary (see attached) and haven't had any luck so far.

I've tried searching by all 3 radicals, but with no luck.

What am I doing wrong?

post-49181-0-53116800-1345312503_thumb.jpg

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skylee

Edit - deleted.

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Hofmann

Very few characters actually have 月 as the radical in the 康熙 system (and even then, they're rarely 月 in etymology). So few that I can list the common ones here.

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andysun731

It is 腰(yāo), meaning waist.

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andre.balian

Thanks everybody.

dwq, you were right. I knew the 2 radicals looked the same, but I didn't realize I had to select 肉 separately from the list of radicals with 6 strokes.

I'm using MDBG as my dictionary. http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=radicals

I've got a bunch of other ones I'm having trouble with, I'll be back for more help.

Thanks!

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Gharial

Why not use a simplified dictionary like nciku? It doesn't load as quickly as MDBG, but the simplified radical system will likely be the easier to immediately use.

If there are times when you still aren't sure what part is the "proper" radical (not that 腰 is a particularly problematic example ultimately), then dictionaries like the following can be useful:

http://www.csse.mona.../wwwjdic.cgi?1R

Note that even though it presents what is essentially the Kangxi radical system, if (continuing with the example of 腰) you tick the 3* item-boxes 肉西女 rather than 月西女 (NB: click on the Rick Harbaugh's Zhongwen Chinese Character Genealogy sublink to get the Chinese/Pinyin) you will draw a blank. So it is obviously purely graphic-based (WYSIWYG) rather than tied to any dissimilar-looking canonical radical forms or etymologies. Which is probably how it should at least immediately be in a quicker-access, modern reference tool.

Generally, I always suggest investing in a simplified paper dictionary that includes and caters for the look-up of traditional characters, such as the Oxford Pocket/Concise bilingual, or at least in a Kangxi-based dictionary that explains the radicals and their variant forms very thoroughly, such as the ABC ECCE (see its excellent 8-page 'Introduction to the Radical Index'). The ABC ECCE ultimately still involves remembering (or rather, being made aware of) the Kangxi stumbling blocks, but it supplies simplified characters immediately above the traditional in the index sections, and has a nifty 'Comprehensive Radical Chart' that makes moving between the simplified or less complex, and the traditional, radicals a breeze. (For example, if one was looking just in the CRC's 4-stroke section, one would see 月 74, 130, reminding one that this might be a variant of the more complex meat radical. Looking at the Kangxi radical chart immediately opposite the CRC one would see 月 74, and 肉 月 130, in the 4- versus 6-stroke sections respectively).

The reason I suggest simplified or simplified-incorporating dictionaries is that the look-up is more intuitive, less fraught - WYSIWYG. Anyway, if you fancy learning the simplified CASS 189 radical system, or at least giving it a try, perhaps start with the gifs here http://www.chinese-f...a-crash-course/ and then move on to the sublink in the first post of that thread, before as a final step learning the remaining two dozen or so Kangxi radicals that have no simplified equivalent (again, see the sublink). And dictionaries like the Oxford or ABC ECCE can be used equally in both the PRC and Taiwan. Plus with the ABC ECCE you get a wealth of very useful information in the actual dictionary itself (see the review I wrote of it, again mentioned in the sublink). "Bonus": I might see about posting my CASS 189 < > Kangxi 214 radical Two-way Conversion chart, :wink:

*To speed things along, you can of course search using just 2 or even just 1 of the radicals, or do a total stroke count in conjunction with at least one of them, etc. Plenty of flexibility in that tool!

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andre.balian

Hi Gharial, thanks for the tip. I do have NJstar software installed, which has a similar interface, but it's really small and cannot be resized. This resouce you sent looks very useful. Thank you.

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Gharial

You're very welcome, Andre! :)

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OneEye
So it is obviously purely graphic-based (WYSIWYG) rather than tied to any dissimilar-looking canonical radical forms or etymologies.

Of course, in Taiwan they do differentiate between and . So as with many things, it depends on which standard you're talking about.

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Gharial

Did anyone say they don't differentiate between yuebu and roubu characters in Taiwan, OneEye? I was obviously talking about the purely WYSIWYG graphics-based decision that Jim Breen seems to have taken in his WWWJDIC than about the Kangxi system generally. 8)

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OneEye

So I'm not allowed to make a tangential observation unless someone else brought it up first? :conf My post wasn't in direct response to anything you said. The reason I quoted you is that your "WYSIWYG" comment is what prompted my post.

My point was that "what you see" may not always be "what you get", and if you're trying to look up something on that site based on what you see, it may only work if it conforms to whatever Breen expects you to have seen. There's enough acceptable variation in characters across standards and throughout history that such a visually-based look-up system may not always work.

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Gharial

Well, your quoting me did make me think it was a direct response. 8):P As for whatever Breen might be expecting the user to check/tick, all I was saying is that the example look-up in this case is suggestive of how his dictionary works and is organized, no more and no less. :wink::)

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