HSK highest level is B2

[Scoobyqueen]

According to Fachverband Chinesisch e.V., the current HSK test's highest level 6 is only equivalent to B2 if you compare it to the CEFR (ie an equivalent to C1 and C2 does not exist).

[renzhe]

This has been discussed before. I agree in principle (new HSK6 is not C2, and it is considerably easier than the old HSK advanced), but their comparison is still quite crude. You can't just compare lexical units and Hanban statements, you have to compare exam contents.

I don't have the competence to tell either FVC or Hanban they are wrong, but I have sat the German C1 exam many years ago and it was very easy after two years of learning. Personally, based on subjective experience with official sample tests, I'd say that HSK6 is in the "C" territory. Some of those grammar questions and the speed at which you are expected to skim topical texts seem too much for what I would consider "B2".

[anonymoose]

Slightly off topic, but I do think that the new format has to a large extent destroyed the value of the HSK. I have two main gripes with the new HSK.

Firstly, I think the top level is too easy. I know out of the hoardes of people beginning to learn Chinese these days, only a fraction will progress to reach that level, but for the advanced learner (and there seem to be quite a number in Asian countries, relative to Western countries at least), there isn't much to aim for any more. In the days of old, the coveted 11 was like the holy grail of HSK, something only heard of in legends. Even getting a 9 or 10 was good, but there was still something to aim for after that. I should say I haven't taken the new HSK 6, but from having looked at HSK materials, it seems that it is substantially easier than the old HSK advanced.

The second point is that I think the levels of the new HSK are too unevely spaced, in the sense that one only needs 150 words for level 1, 300 words for level 2, and I forget what level 3 was but it wasn't much more. So by just learning 300 words, one can already progress from nothing to level 2. I know that one also has to learn the grammar and get used to speaking and listenning, but I'm sure a dedicated learner could achieve that within a couple of months. On the other hand, 2500 words are required for level 5 and 5000 for level 6. So to progress by one level from 5 to 6, one needs to learn 2500 words. Or to put it a different way, one needs to increase one's vocabulary by the same amount to go from level 5 to 6 as to go from nothing to level 5. Even a dedicated learner would take substantially longer than 2 months to achieve this. I guess the reason for setting the levels like this is to encourage beginners, and let them quickly move up the ranks of the HSK, but it futher detracts from the value for the advanced learner.

[Manuel]

Sounds like the want us all to have an impressive CV!

[Silent]

Or to put it a different way, one needs to increase one's vocabulary by the same amount to go from level 5 to 6 as to go from nothing to level 5. Even a dedicated learner would take substantially longer than 2 months to achieve this.

Though the exact numbers are open to debate, I believe that the relative spacing of the levels, roughly double vocabulary at each level, isn't too bad. It's a quite fair representation of the vocabulary expansion needed to reach another functional level. I once saw it represented as an inversed cone. Only a handfull of words is needed to express basic needs. For a simple little chat to introduce yourself you need much more. For a meaningfull chat about again a lot more, etc. Again, the exact numbers are debateable, but a roughly logaritmic increase in vocabulary is needed to catch different functional levels of language acquisition.

What's wrong with taking more then two months to progress from hsk 5 to hsk 6? It's not possible to reach significantly higher level of language proficiency in just a couple of months unless you're a beginner. Also the leap in vocabulary is not as big as it looks on paper as patterns appear and the meaning and pronunciation of new vocabulary can more and more be derived from previously acquiered knowledge instead of learning it from scratch.

Though I agree that hsk 6 isn't a very high level. It does not mean there is nothing to aim for after hsk 6. You can set your own goals, you can aim at the Taiwanese top certification (I think that goes a bit higher) or if you're ambitious you can aim at some native language tests.

[OneEye]

you can aim at the Taiwanese top certification (I think that goes a bit higher)

Maybe, but probably not by much. I was one point from passing the highest level of the TOP when I took it a few weeks ago, and I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable describing my level as anything higher than C1, if that. Not to mention that the test itself is a joke. If what I've been told is correct, it's essentially designed around specific textbooks for foreigners rather than the way native speakers actually use the language. They essentially test how well you've covered the standard range of textbooks used at the MTC.

[Elizabeth_rb]

From what I can see of the issue, it's probable that the new HSK levels are one CEFR Level too high, but I wouldn't say they were two.

I agree completely that lexical items are no way to judge the level of an exam. Well, not in its entirety anyway. It has a place, but there's more to it than just that. There's no way that HSK 4 is level B2, but nor is HSK 6! HSK 5 might well be.

Regarding length of time learning, I remember seeing a Spanish language school in Central America which said A1 in 3 weeks, A2 in 5 more, then another 5 for B1. B2 took also 5 (I think - can't remember exactly now) and C1 9 weeks. C2 used another 30 weeks. So, they reckoned you could get to C2 Spanish in just one year of intensive in-country tuition. Wonder what FVC might make of that.....=)

[Vandalaar]

And I was so proud of my HSK2. Chinese is so much harder to learn than other languages though, I think it is fair that they make it a bit easier to get an A2 or B1 - otherwise people who study German or French get a good grade so much faster.

[felixfan87]

"So, they reckoned you could get to C2 Spanish in just one year of intensive in-country tuition. Wonder what FVC might make of that.....=)"

At least for native English speakers learning Spanish, this isn't anything unheard of. The Foreign Service Insistute FSI actually claims that Spanish is in category 1, meaning it can be mastered 23-24 weeks by native speakers of English. (In an extremely intensive study environment of course)

Mastery of Mandarin isn't required to pass HSK 6 , but I've taken the test with native speakers, and they usually have trouble scoring above 270, does that put their proficiency around B2??

[Elizabeth_rb]

Yes, I understand what you're saying and agree with you. The point I meant to make was that you simply cannot categorise all languages in the same way. This FVC seemed to be saying that a certain amount of taught hours would equal a certain CEFR level, but, as the Spanish example shows, this isn't always the case. The FSI hours level is more like a realistic one as it's more or less language specific.

I heard that native English speakers also can't get full marks on IELTS.=) Makes you wonder what these proficiency test people really expect of learners, no?

[OneEye]

And I was so proud of my HSK2. Chinese is so much harder to learn than other languages though, I think it is fair that they make it a bit easier to get an A2 or B1 - otherwise people who study German or French get a good grade so much faster.

I think you've got it wrong here. A2 and B1 correspond to your actual ability in the language. It's still harder to reach that level in Chinese, regardless of what the HSK people tell you their test equates to. You haven't reached C2 ability just because you passed HSK6 (which is kind of the point of the thread).

Also, I take issue with the idea that learners of Chinese should get a break "because it's hard." Intermediate, advanced, and whatever other levels people like to come up with don't look any different for Chinese than they do for any other language, there's just more time involved.

[Elizabeth_rb]

A2 and B1 correspond to your actual ability in the language.

Yes, that's the point! It's about what you're able to do - how much of what you read/hear you can understand, how well you can express yourself and on what topics (i.e. just tourist stuff or things related to your profession or more or less anything) etc. I doubt HSK has any real correlation with CEFR levels, to be truthful. I think Hanban are just trying to appeal to European (and other) learners, hoping that the suggested CEFR levels will encourage them to take the test. They are out to make money when all's said and done.=)

[renzhe]

I think that there are several issues here:

1) The old HSK tests were widely considered to be more difficult than most standardised tests for most other languages. Let's be honest with each other: the Goethe ZOP is an easy test, and HSK Advanced mutilated puppies and devoured souls. So the HSK tests were reworked in order to better fit with CEFR levels.

2) The CEFR levels claimed by Hanban for the new HSK are too high. The new HSK is too easy compared to other standardised tests (at least at the highest level).

3) The vocabulary lists provided for the HSK have always been an absolute minimum, not "enough to pass".

4) The "hours of instruction" estimates for the HSK should also been seen as an absolute minimum, and are also too low IMHO.

5) I also feel that significant standardisation has taken place, with many textbooks organising things better around what is expected from the HSK (compare NPCR with PCR, for example), and there is much more knowledge about systematically learning Chinese which means that people studying today, in China, with modern materials are likely to make faster progress than part-time learners in Germany 10 years ago.

Then FVC took the claimed CEFR levels (too low) and the vocabulary size (low estimate) and number of required hours of instruction (low estimate) and -- apparently without looking at the exam itself -- constructed a new table.

This is my subjective and non-professional opinion, but I think that a B2 student would not be able to finish reading half of the HSK6 before the time is up, let alone answer all the questions. You need to read and write really fast, and the grammar questions require intuitive understanding, not thinking over grammar rules. Just the speed required pushes it out of the "intermediate" category.

[Elizabeth_rb]

renzhe, I enjoyed your post and your thoughts.=) One thing intrigues me: In your 3rd point you mentioned that the vocab lists were 'a minumum, not enough to pass' and always had been. I'm puzzled that a vocab list should be released and the impression given that they were the syllabus (as far as vocab is concerned), when that may not be the case. Would you mind sharing your source for this as it seems mad to me!!

This comment was made by a graduate of the programme I did (and later taught on) at Leeds Uni:

I sat the level 5 HSK during my 3rd year at Leeds. If you've already graduated I'd try the level 6, shouldn't be much of a problem. I have a friend who took the level 6 at the same time I took the level 5 - although he said it was challenging (remembering we were in the 3rd year, not 4th) he passed it with room to spare.

The 3rd year in this case is following a fairly intensive year in the UK (200 taught hours), then one in China or Taiwan (probably equalling at least 2 in the UK) (at least 450 taught hours, poss as many as 900). Supposing the exam was taken in the May, one can add another 200 taught hours to this, or just 100 if December. So, anything from 750 - 1300 taught hours and both levels 5 and 6 were passed. Of course both, esp. the level 6 'passer' may have been exceptionally capable and diligent students, but it does make one wonder how reliable guidelines are!

Might even get around to doing it myself soon and will be interested to see just how much vocab appears in the test that is not on the official level list - if any.

[renzhe]

I don't know what the vocab lists are meant to be officially, but the HSK tests are notorious for using vocabulary not in those lists, even as correct answers to grammar questions. I definitely know all the vocab on the new HSK6 list, and I ran into quite a few things I hadn't seen before when preparing for the test.

Also remember that I'm basing my opinion on mock-up tests and those online samples, I've never taken the HSK. Could be easier than I think, but finishing HSK6 with room to spare after less than 3 years is an excellent performance, by all means.

I'm sad that the old HSK Advanced is gone, too. It would have been a lofty goal!

[imron]

I'm sad that the old HSK Advanced is gone, too. It would have been a lofty goal!

It seems that it's still available, or at least was this year.

[renzhe]

Imron, I don't think you can take it in Europe, and it will probably go the way of the dodo before I'm ready to take it

Anyway I've just had a go at the online Hanban HSK6 sample reading/grammar test and, just like 3 years ago, failed it narrowly -- I'm still major suxxorz, no improvement in the last 3 years. I'm not a speed-reading demon, so this is not surprising. However, I used the opportunity to check the vocabulary and difficulty.

Many of the questions are easy given enough time, but you are often asked to insert words into texts which are not in HSK vocabulary lists (old or new). Often the correct answer will depend on knowing how to complete a chengyu (which is also not in the HSK lists). So in order to answer every question correctly, you need an active vocabulary in excess of 10,000 units. You can pass the test with less than that, of course, but some of the stuff in there is very tricky, and you don't have too much time.

[Elizabeth_rb]

Oh, I see why you say what you do, renzhe. I did think, from your original comment, that you'd seen some sort of official comment on the subject.=)

I must invite the chap who passed level 5 etc to join in this discussion. I'd be interested to see what he and his friend think about it.

[renzhe]

Actually, HSK5 is a relatively easy test. The jump to level 6 is quite significant, though.

[陳德聰]

That's exactly what my teacher said the other day...

"All of you could very easily pass the new level 5... but the new level 6 is supposed to be much much more difficult".

A little bit awkward when I think about the level of some of my classmates' Mandarin.