Who is Yip Po-Ching

[bluetortilla]

I am studying Basic Chinese, A Grammar and Workbook by Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington. Among the more exotic enunciations are things like zhèi instead of zhè and others. Where does this zhèi pronunciation come from? And it doesn't sound to me like Yip Po-Ching is a Chinese name but I guess I'm wrong.

I do like the book a lot though, and would recommend it to others.

[anonymoose]

Where does this zhèi pronunciation come from?

zhèi is a contraction of zhè yī (这一).

And it doesn't sound to me like Yip Po-Ching is a Chinese name but I guess I'm wrong.

It is a Chinese name, but is translitterated from its (presumably) Cantonese pronunciation. The characters are 叶步青.

[bluetortilla]

Thanks. Makes sense. I'm with my Cantonese friend right now and now he knows too : D

[li3wei1]

I'm not sure, but I suspect Don Rimmington isn't a Chinese name either.

[bluetortilla]

lol. Well, I had to give credit where it's due. But it seems our coauthor's name isn't easy to pin down either, though you might just think it British. Those enigmatic Chinese grammarians...

And what's up with heavy use of books, tables, and beer in all the examples? Jeez, I can give boring examples too, but not at that frequency. They must have collaborated in a very small room.

[renzhe]

zhèi is a contraction of zhè yī (这一).

Is there a good source for this? I'm curious, because I've heard this before, but I've always assumed that it's just northern colloquial thing, where many characters end up being pronounced with an -ei ending.

Think of shei (谁/shui), sei (塞/sai), cei (梡), etc.

Maybe it did start off as a contraction of 这一, but I can think of some examples where this explanation doesn't fit today: e.g. "zhei yang" is "这样", not "这一样", "zhei bianr" is not "这一边儿", etc.

[skylee]

cei (梡)

This is not right, is it? Shouldn't it be (卒瓦)?

[renzhe]

I'm not sure, honestly, I only know it as a spoken word, but this is what nciku says.

[skylee]

Is there a good source for this?

I think the Taiwan MOE Dictionary can be considered a good source. It says -

[skylee]

Re cei4, this thread is relevant -> http://www.chinese-f...c/36565-卒瓦cei4/

[bluetortilla]

If it's a 'northern' thing, then it's strange that Cantonese author penned it. Maybe Rimmington is the Northern guy. The text displays '这' with the pinyin zhei. The same with 那 and nei.

[renzhe]

Re cei4, this thread is relevant

Ah, I see, it seems like nciku is using font substitution, because the character (卒+瓦) is not common in fonts.

As for zhei, I suspect that the Taiwanese usage is different. In mainland dictionaries I've looked at, it is simply an alternative pronunciation of 这, used in informal speech anywhere 这 appears (except compounds, like 这么), even in places where putting 一 would be ungrammatical.

For example. But it's possible that it started out as a contraction. Thanks for the link.

If it's a 'northern' thing, then it's strange that Cantonese author penned it. Maybe Rimmington is the Northern guy.

There is nothing strange about it. It's a grammar of standard Mandarin (putonghua) aimed at foreigners, and zhei4 is a part of this standard, used throughout China when speaking putonghua. The transliteration of the author's name has little to do with any of it Most of the Chinese people I interact with are from around Shanghai (not northern), and they all speak like that.

[realmayo]

I'd guess it's a Northern variant which has become an alternative standard. I know southerners who, when speaking standard Chinese, will use the zhei/nei, but wouldn't do any of the "er-hua" horridness.

I don't think the fact that there's an author with Cantonese romanization of his name should make you think he can't understand standard Chinese.

Edit: renzhe beat me to it.

[anonymoose]

Maybe it did start off as a contraction of 这一, but I can think of some examples where this explanation doesn't fit today: e.g. "zhei yang" is "这样", not "这一样", "zhei bianr" is not "这一边儿", etc.

Do people say "zhei yang" and "zhei bianr"? I can't say I've paid much attention, but it sounds odd to me.

[bluetortilla]

I don't think the fact that there's an author with Cantonese romanization of his name should make you think he can't understand standard Chinese.

As a beginner of Chinese in Guangzhou, I'd be hard pressed to say what 'standard Chinese' might be. I can hear the Cantonese accent (speaking of Mandarin, not Cantonese of course) pretty well now, and the occasional striking tones and 'er's' of people/visitors speaking with a Northern accent, but all the rest the Chinese I hear is coming, form what friends tell me, mostly south-central provinces such as Hunan. Trying to distinguish accents amidst that cacophony, my impression is that 'Mandarin' is wickedly non-standard in pronunciation. I guess your experience is totally different if you live in Beijing.

I had never heard 'zhei' before (of course I can't hear much!) but what made me bring it up is that my Cantonese student insisted that the word was not in use. Guess he was wrong. Because of that I guess I just thought that a Cantonese author would prefer just zhe over zhei if the latter is just a variable. Since MDBG doesn't list zhei, it's use in a beginner's grammar seems a little odd. Sorry for the babbling.

[skylee]

Since MDBG doesn't list zhei,

Take a look ->

http://www.mdbg.net/...noce=0&cdqchi=這

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=chardict&cdqman=+zhei&cdrbst=0&cdmantmce=0

[renzhe]

my impression is that 'Mandarin' is wickedly non-standard in pronunciation.

In practice yes, because not everybody speaks 100% correctly, according to the standard (this includes many Northerners). This is not a crime, or bad per se, but grammar book authors tend to stick quite closely to the standard, and that's a good thing.

Zhei and nei are a bit strange in that they are very colloquial, and originally northern, but they are so widespread nowadays that they dominate most of the language I hear. You only need to turn on the TV and watch a sitcom.

[bluetortilla]

grammar book authors tend to stick quite closely to the standard, and that's a good thing.

Where does the standard come from? Beijing? The Ministry of education?

Zhei and nei are a bit strange in that they are very colloquial, and originally northern, but they are so widespread nowadays that they dominate most of the language I hear. You only need to turn on the TV and watch a sitcom.

I guess since I don't have a TV I don't hear it (maybe I'm just missing it on the streets- very possible). But I'm still non-plussed by my student's reaction that nobody says it. Maybe the pinyin form just startled him. Or indeed it's not used much here down south. I do know my (Cantonese) character teacher frowned upon my use of 'nar' and said it would be better for me to 'na li.' Also, the previously mentioned student kept insisting that I was pronouncing nage wrong. He kept making me say 'lage'. They seem to have their ways down here.

[bluetortilla]

Since MDBG doesn't list zhei,

Take a look ->

http://www.mdbg.net/...noce=0&cdqchi=這

http://www.mdbg.net/...t=0&cdmantmce=0

Yes. On a second look I found zhei in the sub-heading. So it is not a contraction.

[renzhe]

But I'm still non-plussed by my student's reaction that nobody says it. Maybe the pinyin form just startled him.

Probably. Depends on how the question was phrased. Sometimes native speakers don't really understand what you're asking them. I had a similar situation with the Portuguese "rr", where lots of people refused to believe that there was an alternative pronunciation until I sat them down in front of a TV and showed them an actor doing it, after which they said "Ah, THAT'S what you mean"

I do know my (Cantonese) character teacher frowned upon my use of 'nar' and said it would be better for me to 'na li.'

This is a matter of preference, and in the south the latter is much more common. For interacting with the locals, it is good advice: you're more likely to be understood, and you don't risk coming off as pompous (putting on a northern accent, when you're not really from there).

Nar is certainly not wrong, though, and many young people from the south will use a northern pronunciation when speaking Mandarin. The TV and the media play a huge role here.

Also, the previously mentioned student kept insisting that I was pronouncing nage wrong. He kept making me say 'lage'. They seem to have their ways down here.

That's just wrong. You should take his advice with a large grain of salt, perhaps look for a different tutor for the pronunciation part.