the 了 should be 的 thing - Chinese grammar confusion

[tooironic]

I've always found Chinese grammar relatively straight-forward, but there is one thing that I haven't quite got my head wrapped around yet.

I wasn't sure exactly what this phenomenon is called, so I just entitled the thread "the 了 should be 的 thing - Chinese grammar confusion".

Here's an example of what I"m talking about:

因為自己一直以來就對Nursing學科感興趣（在悉尼也是申請的這一學科）希望自己今後可以在這一領域有所發展，所以我申請了Bachelor of Nursing這一課程。

I came across it today in my translation work. I've left the grammar and structure intact, but changed some of the keywords for confidentiality purposes.

Anyway, what I find interesting about this sentence is its use of 的. Specifically here: 在悉尼也是申請的這一學科. Because if it was me writing I probably would have written, in all my non-native speaker ignorance, 在悉尼也是申請了這一學科.

Why is 了 need to be 的 here? Is it because of the preceding 是, or some other reason? And does anyone know what this grammatical concept is known as? I've been corrected a few times for making this "了-and-的" mistake so I know this error must be related to something specific in Chinese grammar, presumably a special usage of 的, or something else.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[li3wei1]

presumably it's part of a 是...的 construction, otherwise what would the 是 be doing there? However, this would make more sense as 也是在悉尼申請這一學科的. And you could maybe even have a 了 in there, as well.

[Hofmann]

Actually, it looks wrong to me.

[arrow]

I agree with Hofmann. I think the author wants to say 在悉尼也是申請了這一學科 or 在悉尼也是申請這一學科的 but end up with the hybrid.

There's a correct way of using 的 here, that is 在悉尼申請的也是這一學科, which grammartically equals to 在悉尼申請的學科也是這一學科

[edelweis]

My textbook claims that when the 是...的 emphasis structure is used with a verb +object clause, and the object is not a pronoun, 的 can be placed between the verb and the object.

What is unclear to me is what part of the sentence is emphasized in the sentence the OP quoted.

[creamyhorror]

Edelweis is right, the 是...的 construction is quite flexible. You can place the 的 virtually anywhere between 是 and the end of the sentence. I specifically checked this in a few grammar books a few years ago, because it surprised me too. You can say things like 是他打的那只狗 (meaning 是他打那只狗的 but emphasising the fact that it was him who did it).

I think it's characteristic of mainland or regional usage, because we definitely don't do this in Singapore, and I haven't seen it in Taiwanese shows either. I still find it weird, but I accept it.

I think there's a significant degree of overlap between 了 and 的 in this case - it almost seems like the two started getting mixed up or used interchangeably at some point.

[陳德聰]

I don't know if I understand.

When I read this I don't get the feeling that it should be 也是申请了这一学科...

The 是___的 emphasizes the fact that not only have I always been interested but I also applied in Sydney, doesn't it?

I read it with little mental italics: 也是申请的这一学科

[realmayo]

了 would focus on completion of an action, but using 是...的 avoids that because it's not the fact that this action was completed that is important, but something else. However I'm not sure what the important thing is here, maybe it's that it happened in Sydney, but I get the sense that the important thing is that this happened at all.

So the 也 needs commenting on: surely it is the point of emphasis? Inside the brackets is something butressing the preceding statement?

tooironic: this site talks a bit about the difference between 了 and 的 with 是...的:

http://web.archive.o...ammar/shi-9.htm

I like the explanations there because they talk about "focus" not "emphasis" and I think that sometimes when 是...的 is used it's not so much as some big emphasiser but more as an organiser.

edit: the main page is http://web.archive.o...ammar/shide.htm

[Hofmann]

Somehow, I'm inclined to find 申請 to be an adjective (or stative verb) instead of a transitive verb (as it is usually), describing 學科. It seems like a stretch. But even then, 在悉尼也是申請的這一學科 seems to make 這一學科 the subject (flipped over to the end), instead of an implied 我. I'm having difficulty making sense of how what appears to have 這一學科 as the subject actually has 我.

[hbuchtel]

I really felt that the part in parentheses was simply written poorly, but my wife (a native Chinese speaker) says that I'm wrong, and that it is perfectly ok, and that it means "我在悉尼申请的也是这个学科", and that it really doesn't matter if they write "也是申请的" or "申请的也是".

I still feel that that the latter is correct, and the former incorrect, but I cannot really disagree with a native speaker...

[hbuchtel]

More questionable analysis:

Subject section: 我在悉尼申请的 “The thing I registered for in Sydney"

Object section: 也是这个学科 “was also this same field"

Put them together and we get--

Chinese sentence structure in English: "The thing I registered for in Sydney was also this same field."

But in English somehow the subject and object of the Chinese sentence (ie 'the thing I registered for' and 'this same field') get combined into 'this', and now we have 'I' as the subject and 'this' as the object --

English sentence structure in English: "I also registered for this in Sydney" or "I registered for this in Sydney as well."

Sigh...any explanations for what I'm trying to get at?

[heifeng]

Quote: RE: Sigh...any explanations for what I'm trying to get at?

I'm looking at this part "我在悉尼申请的也是这个学科",...not further up..otherwise my head might explode

using a demonstrative pronoun & converting the English into the SVO format that does not use the Chinese topic-comment sentence structure and switching the emphasis a bit more to 'I' (and the action) rather than what was applied for?

Edit: Head didn't explode yet, so I'll give it a try of what the original content was in parenthesis in the original context:

因為自己一直以來就對Nursing學科感興趣（在悉尼也是申請的這一學科）

The above feels like everything preceding 學科 (which per post #1 is referring to THIS FIELD of Nursing) is just modifying it, as long as the adjective order is correct (I lack my textbook at the moment to double check), it seems as though there is just a heavily modified 學科 & keeping it in the spot light, but if you attempt change 的to 了 then it's like an actual sentence in parenthesis and you need to start modifying the portion in parenthesis even more to have a subject & the action of applying to this field, where the original text just sort of wedged this additional information in there.

[hbuchtel]

Thanks heifeng. I don't want to take the thread too far off subject, but am interested in pursing the question of how the same meaning is expressed in Chinese and English if others are as well.

"I've always been interested in Nursing (this is what I registered for in Sydney as well), and have always hoped that I could get a job in this field, which is why I registered for the Bachelor of Nursing program."

********************

Back to the original question, I don't think the ( . . . ) part could be written using 了, but my intellectual understanding of grammatical rules is not strong enough to explain why...

[creamyhorror]

I reassert that

[我]在悉尼也是申請的這一學科 = [我]在悉尼也是申請這一學科的

because this is a 是...的 structure with 的 in a shifted position. 我 is the implied subject.

it really doesn't matter if they write "也是申请的" or "申请的也是".

I'll just disagree with this. Maybe they perceive it that way in some places colloquially, but I don't think this is standard grammar. It's literally saying 是...的 is equivalent to 的...是, which is hard for me to accept. Native speakers on the forums, please chime in.

[hbuchtel]

This might be helpful--

Original: 在悉尼也是申请的这一学科

Interpretation 1: 我在悉尼也是申请这个学科的

Interpretation 2: 我在悉尼申请的也是这个学科

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

it really doesn't matter if they write "也是申请的" or "申请的也是".

I'm still questioning this as well - here's why: if you write the sentence more explicitly, the second example becomes "[我]在悉尼申请的[学科]也是这个[学科]," which is a little funny but not grammatically incorrect. But if you write the original example the same way you get "[我]在悉尼也是申请的[学科]这个[学科]," which is obviously incorrect.

I second the request for more native speakers!

[hbuchtel]

On the subject of using 了 instead of 的:

Original (using 的): 因為自己一直以來就對Nursing學科感興趣（在悉尼也是申請的這一學科）希望自己今後可以在這一領域有所發展，所以我申請了Bachelor of Nursing這一課程

Based on the "(我在悉尼申请的也是这一学科)" interpretation of the original, an English translation would be: "Because I've always been interested in Nursing (this is the subject that I registered for in Sydney as well), and have always hoped that I could get a job in this field, I registered for the Bachelor of Nursing program."

Based on the "(我在悉尼也是申请这一学科的)" interpretation, an English translation would be: "Because I've always been interested in Nursing ([What am I?] I am an 'also registered for this subject in Sydney' . . .!?!?!), and have always hoped that I could get a job in this field, I registered for the Bachelor of Nursing program."

Using 了 to convey a very similar meaning: （在悉尼也申请了这一学科）

When 了 is used, an English translation would be: "Because I've always been interested in Nursing (I registered for this subject in Sydney as well/ I also registered for this subject in Sydney {which one? slight difference...}), and have always hoped that I could get a job in this field, I registered for the Bachelor of Nursing program."

Off to douse brain in cold water.

edit: this NYTimes article is good cold water: http://opinionator.b...bs-as-nouns/?hp

[陳德聰]

@hbuchtel, Your interpretations are bad. While there is a tiny voice in my head telling me there has to be a difference, I am inclined to agree with creamyhorror.

[我]在悉尼也是申請的這一學科 = [我]在悉尼也是申請這一學科的

The meanings are the same. If you are trying to translate the "是...的" 句型 as [What am I?] I am a ___, then you are doing it wrong.

[hbuchtel]

@hbuchtel, Your interpretations are bad.

No, go ahead, tell me what you really think...

Please read them again, and do so with the assumption that I might be having a bit of fun with the translation, and am not afraid of ending up with something a bit silly...!

[Jose]

I agree with edelweis and creamyhorror. 是申請的這一學科 is just an alternative way of saying 是申請這一學科的 that's well documented in textbooks. It's common in languages to twist the word order depending on emphasis or simply on the relative length of the phrases. For example, in English you can say 'she mentions it in her book' but it's awkward to say 'she mentions in her book it'. However, it's perfectly correct to say 'she mentions in her book the hardship she was going through at the time', where we have a very long object instead of a plain pronoun. Similarly in Chinese the 是(verb object)的 structure can be rearranged as 是(verb)的(object) with no change in meaning.

[gato]

I agree with hbuchtel's wife.

These three versions are all fine:

- 我在悉尼申请的也是这一学科

- 我在悉尼也是申请的这一学科

- 我在悉尼也是申请这一学科的

申请的 in the first version above is in the form of the verb+的 construct, which makes verbs into nouns. You might translate it as "that which [pronoun] [verb]". 在悉尼申请的也是这一学科 translated literally is "That to which I applied in Sydney is also this major". Another example: 我听的是这首歌 can be translated literally as "That to which I listened is this song."

是+verb+的 is grammatically different, I believe. Whereas verb+的 coming before 是 serves like a noun phrase, following 是 it is more like an adjective. In the original example, 申请这一学科的 is describing the speaker's state in Sydney.