Dialect Usage around China

[Takeshi]

One thing I have always wondered is about how much local dialect (as opposed to 普通話) is used in what cities where/when? I haven't travelled much around China, but I have a sort of belief that Cantonese is one of the strongest dialects in terms of use, partly due to HK and such, but I'm really curious to find out exactly what the dynamics are because obviously dialects other than Cantonese are probably still alive, especially in rural areas perhaps? Or maybe even more alive than Cantonese in Guangzhou when you consider the fact that like half the population are out-of-province people who can't speak it. I guess the obvious thing is that the formal language used in business(?)/school is probably almost always going to be Mandarin, but what else?

Could everyone reply with information about dialect use in the cities they live in?

I haven't been to many places in China, but I can only say a few things (rough percentage of estimation of dialect use in brackets... very rough percentage):

广州 (60%): Cantonese is probably the preferred language for almost all of the Cantonese population, however not all of the population is Cantonese. Some out-of-province people will learn Canto, but usually it's the ones who live more down to earth lives and need to interact with everyday people more. On the other hand I have actually seen some Cantonese people speaking to each other in Mandarin because they met in school and everyone else from their school apparently spoke Mandarin so they got used to it. Announcements on subway/buses are in Mandarin as well as Cantonese; various TV stations have Cantonese broadcasts.

深圳 (10%): Most of the people seem to be out-of-province people who don't speak or don't like to speak Cantonese; you can get by with Cantonese here, but it generally would be them accommodating for you. The local preferred language of the people seems to be Mandarin, unless you happen to bump into an actual local Cantonese person, but I've only ever met one. Announcements on the subway are still in Mandarin and Cantonese though!

韶关 (30%?): I've only been here on a short trip so I'm not so sure. I have been in one restaurant where the waitresses were clearly talking to us in Cantonese, but the people at the hotel I stayed at did not seem to be Cantonese (they could speak and understand it though, but again they were accommodating to me; I think they spoke Hakka amongst themselves). I asked some people what language people speak here, and they said they mostly speak Mandarin. I guess the local people are a mix of Cantonese and Hakka so Mandarin is the default?

梅县 (90%): Everyone spoke Hakka period. They could apparently all speak Mandarin, but I never heard any. Some could understand Cantonese when we speak, but they'd speak back in Hakka. (I went to visit family, so this might explain their insistence on using Hakka because apparently they thought it was unsuitable to use Mandarin to speak to people within the family.)

香港 (100%): I don't think I need to explain.

澳門 (100%): Again, I don't think I need to explain.

I'm especially curious about Hokkien and 吳語 dialect regions.

I have an impression that Taiwanese is not at all used as the main preferred language amongst young people when talking to each other, even if most Hokkien people could speak it, it would mainly be used to talk to older people. (At least for people from the big cities for sure; perhaps in certain areas in the South etc it is different, but I wouldn't know) Despite this, I get the impression that Taiwan has a very strong Taiwanese language media with songs and TV (compared to anything on the Mainland) that is probably due to the political situation. How about Amoy? Do more people speak Hokkien there compared to Taiwan? Or is Mandarin more common? I have the impression that say... Teochew is spoken quite a lot in 潮汕 for example but obviously Teochew doesn't have the media strength Taiwanese Hokkien does. (Lots of Teochews around in Guangzhou, and they all speak Teochew.)

Speaking of Hokkien there is also SEA. It seems to be obviously obliterated in SG and perhaps in surrounding JB etc areas (despite being traditionally Hokkien speaking areas), but quite alive in say Penang. (Again, I've never been to these places; this is just my impression; I would appreciate input from people who know) In KL people actually seem to still speak Canto also.

So yea, I don't know much, but I'm curious to see how it is for everyone else; tell me about your city!

[abcdefg]

Lots of Kunmighua in Kunming. Yunnan has quite a few dialects that are alive and well, and for the most part they are not mutually intelligible.

I just returned from a trip to the Jiangnan 江南 region (around Suzhou) where lots of Wu 吴 is spoken. It barely sounds like Chinese. Even the speech rhythm is different.

[hainandao]

I'm sure you have probably already come across this but Ramsey's 'The languages of China' is a pretty readable guide to the historical and geographical evolution and use of 'dialects' in China...I have a Professor who goes off on one every time we use the word dialect in relation to some of the mutually unintelligible languages in the mainland, he is quite a character I must say.

[anonymoose]

Shanghainese is obviously widely spoken in Shanghai, but how much you hear really depends on your immediate surroundings. For example, if you work in a large company, probably many or most of your colleagues will be from outside Shanghai, and thus little Shanghainese will be spoken in the office.

On the other hand, if you go to one of the older apartment blocks, especially away from the centre of the city, you will find that Shanghainese is spoken by the majority of the residents, and of the elderly, almost 100%.

Also, from my experience, most McDonalds staff speak Shanghainese, whereas KFC staff don't. I'm not sure if this is company policy, hiring policy, or maybe just a peculiarity of my own experience.

[OneEye]

Taiwanese is still used a lot in Taiwan. I hear more Taiwanese than Mandarin in the part of Taipei where I live (kind of on the outskirts of the city, but still on the MRT). It's true that younger people tend to prefer Mandarin, at least in Taipei, and I think a lot of them are embarrassed by the fact that their Taiwanese isn't very good. I think pretty much everyone at least understands Taiwanese though, even if they don't speak it themselves. You also hear a lot of Taiwanese words peppered into Mandarin conversation, and even sometimes on the news or in newspapers. Lots of code switching, too. A lot of people speak Taiwanese until it breaks down, then switch to Mandarin for a few words, then back to Taiwanese when they can.

Taiwanese is a sort of political symbol here though. A lot of pro-independence/pan-Green people speak Taiwanese as a sign of their political alignment. There's an old textbook called "Talks on Chinese Culture," published in separate editions by ICLP and Yale, which is chock full of really old-school KMT propaganda (it was written in the '50s). There's a Taiwanese version of it, and friends of mine have commented about how bizarre it is to hear Taiwanese used to discuss the KMT's mission to take China back from the Communists (for instance). "Why would they publish a Taiwanese version?" It just doesn't compute.

There's a Taiwan-focused bookstore (台灣ê店 Tai uan e tiam, 台灣的店) near 台大 that sells a lot of things on Taiwanese language and culture (and essentially nothing on "Chinese" anything), and some of the employees refuse to speak Mandarin. If you don't speak Taiwanese, they'll speak English. There's at least one of them who doesn't mind you speaking Mandarin if you're a foreigner, but everything you say to him, he'll repeat back to you in Taiwanese, wait for you to say it back to him, and then answer you in both languages. It's kind of fun.

There does seem to be a decent amount of Taiwanese-language media, but I'm not familiar with it (I only know a few phrases). There is some push by a few scholars to write in Taiwanese, but there's no coherent system yet. Unfortunately, a lot of people use characters for their phonetic value in Mandarin to approximate their Taiwanese pronunciation. So 我跟汝講/我共你講 (I've seen both forms, pronounced guá kā lí kóng in Tâi-lô romanization) might become 哇呷唎嗊. "Because how else will we know it's Taiwanese?" I don't see why they can't use written Cantonese as an example to follow, but so far they haven't.

Interesting thread.

[li3wei1]

20-odd years ago I tried to find anything published in Taiwanese, and the best answer I got was that some Singaporean newspapers might use the same characters. Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. A lot of people told me that Taiwanese wasn't a written language and never had been, which I filed alongside 'Chinese doesn't have grammar'.

[gato]

20-odd years ago I tried to find anything published in Taiwanese, and the best answer I got was that some Singaporean newspapers might use the same characters. Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. A lot of people told me that Taiwanese wasn't a written language and never had been, which I filed alongside 'Chinese doesn't have grammar'.

"Taiwanese" is really a misnomer, though it is a common usage. It refers to the Taiwan version of the Minnan dialect (Hokkien), which is the most popular dialect spoken in Taiwan before 1949. But Hakka and many indigenous Taiwanese languages were also spoken in Taiwan before 1949. I think many Hakka and indigenous people in Taiwan don't agree with that terminology.

[liuzhou]

Most people round here (Liuzhou, Guangxi) speak 桂柳话, a dialect of Mandarin, but we also have different languages, mainly Zhuang (which also has a number of different dialects), and other ethnic minority languages (Miao, Yao, Dong etc.) Some Cantonese, too.

It's a real linguistic jumble.

[OneEye]

"Taiwanese" is really a misnomer, though it is a common usage. It refers to the Taiwan version of the Minnan dialect (Hokkien), which is the most popular dialect spoken in Taiwan before 1949. But Hakka and many indigenous Taiwanese languages were also spoken in Taiwan before 1949. I think many Hakka and indigenous people in Taiwan don't agree with that terminology.

This is true. Either Taiwanese Hokkien or Taiwanese Minnan would be a better term in English, and some Taiwanese people prefer to simply call it 閩南語, which is not very specific but works fine. Some of the "Taiwan literature" type departments refer to Taiwanese Hokkien, Hakka, and the aboriginal languages collectively as "Taiwanese native languages" (台灣本土語言), but that also poses problems, because Mandarin is the native language of a lot of Taiwanese people now, Japanese was at one point, and even Dutch was taught once upon a time. Also, Hokkien and Hakka are relatively recent arrivals themselves, in the grand scheme of things. They can all be categorized as remnants of colonialism, depending on who's doing the categorizing. Unfortunately it's all much too heavily politicized.

[heifeng]

I don't live there, but often visit & have to talk with many people from near 菏泽, Shandong, specifically in the village 郓城。I have photos from a dialect book on 郓城话 that I may have posted up here (I'll look around), and basically this dialect may be a little different from other nearby villages and even more different from other regions in Shandong. However, this is not uncommon. Here is a link on 菏泽方言 which goes into the Heze dialect a bit. However, usually those younger than 35ish (or studied/worked outside village) can speak puthonghua even if out of practice (true of many places again). It's an interesting dialect, and my estimate is that as a northern dialect, a mandarin speaker can understand maybe 1/2 of it right off the bat and then more as time goes on & it sinks in. Also, for example in the countryside...many of the young people are in the cities, so the seniors are mostly there (unless it's a holiday) and just speak the dialect at home with the young children. Once the children are old enough to attend school then they eventually learn putonghua.

As far as in 郓城 specifically, one of the most interesting aspects of the dialect, to me at least, is that the SH initial becomes F in many words. (水，大叔）。 Also the 'ai' sound often changes to to a 'ei' sound instead. (this is why after you get the hang of it and throw in some vocab, you can understand a good portion of it right away)

Other than pronunciation differences, the below point, also mentioned in the 菏泽话 link is also what immediately stands out to me a bit in conversation. Many 2 syllable words may suddenly multiply to 4 syllables, but are fun to say (& thus easy to remember ) & 拉 is used quite a bit as one of the syllables, often the 2nd syllable. (wow, I was happy to find that link. Maybe I can actually brush up on more local vocab now hah)

（四）普通话中某些双音节词，菏泽话对应的是多音节词，如：

普通话 脖子 膝盖 额头 壁虎 喜鹊 蝌蚪

菏泽话 脖拉更 胳拉拜子 额拉拜子 歇虎子 马嘎子 蛤蟆蝌蚪

{Edit: I cannot find if I uploaded photos from dialect book previously. Is there a quick way to search for personally uploaded attachments?}

[Takeshi]

@abcdefg: Interesting. Is it used by the young people as well? Do most people in Kunming speak the same Kunminghua or are there a few dialects within the city? Is there media or bus announcements in Kunminghua?

@hainandao: Thanks, I should check out that book!

@anonymoose: Thanks, that's interesting. So when local people go to McD to order they'd do it in Shanghainese? But I guess in general when you see someone random on the street you would still initiate a conversation with them in Mandarin? I keep hearing stories about native Shanghai people who don't teach their kids Shanghainese (in fact, I know such a couple), so I keep getting the impression Shanghainese is dead though. Is there media or subway announcements in Shanghainese?

@OneEye: Yea I heard of that bookstore in one of your other posts; it does seem interesting. But wow; that guy sure sounds awesome. 哇呷唎嗊 is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. But yea, I was seriously worried about the vitality of Taiwanese when I asked my friend (who claims she can speak Taiwanese) how to say like 閩南 in Taiwanese and she said "there's no special word for it, we just say 'Minnan'". I guess my point is, is that if you see a random young person on the street in Taiwan and need to talk to them for whatever reason, I seem to get the impression that it would be most natural to do so in Mandarin. (in Guangzhou you can get away with initiating conversations in Cantonese, though you would have to switch out if the other party doesn't understand sometimes.) Would young people who hang out normally speak Taiwanese to each other if they are Hokkien people?

Yea, I don't like the term "Taiwanese" either, because most of my exposure to Hokkien is from SEA, and the people there obviously don't even consider themselves Taiwanese; but what can I do. I prefer the also politically incorrect term "Hokkien" (福建話) again mainly because it's common in SEA so I'm used to it; but I had a friend from 福州 get mad at me for using it and who tried to explain to me that there is no one 福建話 because people in 福建省 speak other things too.

@liuzhou: is 桂柳话 used as a lingua france between people or is it Mandarin? What language would two people who randomly meet each other on the street speak?

@heifeng: Interesting. Yours is the only case where it's "people under 35 can usually speak Mandarin too" instead of "people under 35 usually prefer Mandarin".

[roddy]

Heifeng - My Media button on the editor box should do the trick, but I haven't really used it myself so not sure how well it works.

[OneEye]

Would young people who hang out normally speak Taiwanese to each other if they are Hokkien people?

I hear it sometimes, but not much. More so in the south though, from my little bit of experience there.

[abcdefg]

@abcdefg: Interesting. Is it used by the young people as well? Do most people in Kunming speak the same Kunminghua or are there a few dialects within the city? Is there media or bus announcements in Kunminghua?

Yes, it's used by young and old alike when they are talking with one another outside in daily life. It is also used in the home. But the young switch to Putonghua when dealing with someone who isn't local. When I shop for produce in the wet market, Kunminghua is used almost exclusively. Vendors can understand my Putonghua, but answer in Kunminghua.

One local TV station has broadcasting in which the announcers, hosts and guests all speak Kunminghua. The others Yunnan channels use Putonghua. Bus announcements are in Mandarin.

I'm not aware of sub-dialects of Kunminghua, but several of the dialects spoken in neighboring prefectures are very similar. I can by now pick out hints and clues which let me know whether a speaker is from Honghe Zhou (south of Kunming) or from Chuxiong Zhou (west of Kunming.)

I've been told by native Kunming friends that a lot of what makes Kunminghua distinctive is in fact just pronunciation. They tend to convert quite a few last syllable tones from whatever they were supposed to be into a sharply falling fourth tone. They also like to end words with a "ga" sound. So you hear things like "Xie Xie Ga" and "Zai Jian Ga."

Often Kunminghua is actually a distortion of something you will know from Putonghua. For example, asking the price of tomatoes or apples in the wet market, one says something which sounds like "zaoge may" which is a corruption of 怎么卖? (zenme mai?)

Sometimes when local people speak Mandarin, they have a strong Kunminghua accent. Find this a lot in taxi drivers. Kunming is not one of those cities, such as Shenzhen or Zhuhai, were most of the current residents migrated from someplace else. Most of the people I know here were born and raised either in Kunming itself or in another part of Yunnan Province.

[Steingletscher]

四川话 is really strong here in 成都 and 重庆 as well. The young educated people can speak 普通话 really well, but even then, they prefer to talk amongst themselves in 四川话。Then there are the hip-hop heads that take immense pride in their language (but the hip-hop culture in general seems to emphasize local pride and local style), for example there is a rapper here who raps exclusively in 四川话。Not just hip-hop, but the other subcultures as well (like the fixie-bike community here). Them and the really old guys. I remember once trying to talk to some of them using 普通话，but I remember them laughing at the fact that I was studying 普通话。Part of me thinks that since they think that 四川话 isn't that far from 普通话，they figure they could just speak the way they do and most people who aren't local will understand them. Some friends who aren't 四川人 tell that that isn't true and for the first year they are here they can't understand most of what people say, but eventually get the hang of it.

I personally love the dialect and think it's awesome. I want to learn it (particularly the 重庆方言) but not until after a couple of years of 普通话 will I start it.

[anonymoose]

@anonymoose: Thanks, that's interesting. So when local people go to McD to order they'd do it in Shanghainese? But I guess in general when you see someone random on the street you would still initiate a conversation with them in Mandarin? I keep hearing stories about native Shanghai people who don't teach their kids Shanghainese (in fact, I know such a couple), so I keep getting the impression Shanghainese is dead though. Is there media or subway announcements in Shanghainese?

Older people will speak in Shanghainese when dealing with things in public (eg. shop, post office, bank etc.). Younger people will usually speak in Mandarin. Most 外地人 who work in public service posts can understand enough to deal with people speaking Shanghainese, though needless to say, they reply in Mandarin.

Most people under about 30 have grown up using predominantly Mandarin, in school for example, so they probably feel more comfortable speaking Mandarin at home, and therefore may not teach Shanghainese to their children. I also know a couple like that. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to hear people in their 20s chatting in Shanghainese.

I guess that Shanghainese is in decline, but it is far from a dead language as of yet.

There are no public announcements in Shanghainese, but there are some Shanghainese programmes on television (though no channels devoted exclusively to Shanghainese).

[liuzhou]

@liuzhou: is 桂柳话 used as a lingua france between people or is it Mandarin? What language would two people who randomly meet each other on the street speak?

It would nearly always be be 桂柳话. That is what I hear on the streets, in shops, in buses, from taxi drivers etc. As has been said by others in other places, most people understand 普通话, but usually reply in 桂柳话. A few older people in the surrounding countryside will only speak dialect or one of the minority languages. I know one woman who only speaks an obscure Dong dialect with only around 20 remaining speakers. Fortunately her daughter is multilingual and translates as necessary.

Most local television is in 普通话 (more to do with government / party policy than anything else, I suspect) although there is one very popular show every evening which is always in 桂柳话. I've even been on it, speaking 桂柳话!

Incidentally, local teachers are required to sit 普通话 exams. The vast majority fail.

[tooironic]

I've been told by native Kunming friends that a lot of what makes Kunminghua distinctive is in fact just pronunciation. They tend to convert quite a few last syllable tones from whatever they were supposed to be into a sharply falling fourth tone. They also like to end words with a "ga" sound. So you hear things like "Xie Xie Ga" and "Zai Jian Ga."

Interesting. When I travelled around Yunnan and other southern provinces like Hunan and Hubei I remember hearing a lot of abrupt 哈s at the end of sentences, I wonder if that's related.

[realmayo]

I've tended to hear that as a "Ah" rather than a "Ha".

Slightly different, I remember hearing lots of much softer "Ha"s from Jenny on Chinesepod who I think is from Shanghai.

[benjamincai]

In Hong Kong of cause all people are speaking Cantonese. Really no need to explain

My 鄉下 is 潮州 and I find that there are many people know how to speak 潮州話 too in Hong Kong. And also in 潮州.

潮州話 is really different with Mandarin and Cantonese. I cannot understand it too well, just partially understand.

They have interesting word. For example(sorry I am going to say something disgusting ) "go to empty the bowels"

Cantonese is 屙屎

Mandarin is 大便

However 潮州 use 放 as the verb of this action.

Really interesting