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[roddy]

I think this illustrates quite well the danger of taking things out of context. First reactions here were that this was a clumsy sentence deserving of a re-write. Now we find it was written by a respected author, from the viewpoint of rural, small-town, Taiwan folk.

“The average man don't like trouble and danger.”

Anyone want to correct Mark Twain's grammar?

[skylee]

Is the writer famous? But it does not mean that it is a good sentence.

[Lu]

黄春明 certainly is famous, in Taiwan at least. Who says this in the story? The main character is not a rural, small-town type if I recall correctly.

[陳德聰]

Respected isn't the same as famous...

When I was reading that part of the story I didn't really think twice, and had already skimmed over the "awkward part" in question before I realized it was the part I was looking for.

I have slipped a couple of these types of sentences to my friends in the last couple of days, and then when they didn't react, repeated them slowly and asked if there was anything funny about the sentences. Definitely not a particularly stimulating conversation topic, but whatever. I'm pretty convinced that this is a type of sentence that people speak all the time but somehow consider "not proper" when it comes to being faced with the words on a page, and will invariably deny that they ever say this type of sentence.

The guy is from a rural small town but he says it in his head in the context of trying to explain (to the readers) why it would be utter hell for him to take these Japanese guys out.

[trissytrizzy]

To those who asked how I came up with 「據他說」,

My rewrite was based on Miko869's question. Didn't he say he wanted the sentence to sound like "According to my paternal grandfather"?

[Lu]

Well, famous enough that I got his stories to read in three unrelated literature classes. Perhaps not oh my god can I get your autograph famous, but this is a writer, not a rock star or president.

I agree that this sentence is okay, or at least acceptable, when said, but it looks bad in writing imo.

[trissytrizzy]

I am with skylee. Just because this author is famous doesn't mean his/her writing is good. Lots of famous philosophers write horribly.

[陳德聰]

@trissytrizzy, Miko869 was mistaken about the form of the original sentence, and it was making it difficult for them to translate...

edit: the quality of the author's writing has nothing to do with the author's original intent for the sentence!!!

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[陳德聰]

我最喜欢听他讲故事的祖父

我最喜欢听讲故事的祖父？？？ On the contrary... without the 他 it's even further away from acceptable.

The 他 is the 祖父, who is the person who 我 loved listening to as 他 told stories... Without the 他 there is no way to tie the modifier to the grandfather. It's possible that Goldblatt isn't right, but you'd have to ask 黄春明, since none of us are inside his head and the original sentence is vague.

[trissytrizzy]

All I can say is, do not trust translators : )

When I had my literary translation courses, I always argued with my teachers for how the texts should be translated.

We are not the authors, we don't know what they really mean. And I can assure you, sometimes even the original writers don't know what they were writing about. Ronald Barthes's The Death of the Author has explained how the meaning of a literary work changes as the readers interpret it in a different way. Different translators may have different interpretations for the same text; and therefore, different translations.

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[skylee]

I disagree with #32.

[OneEye]

Good writers purposefully write "incorrect" or sloppy sentences all the time if they're going for a certain feel. roddy picked a good example in Mark Twain, and I don't know of anyone who would accuse Twain of being a poor writer.

This sentence is clumsy, yes. But I think it's fairly clear what it means. Roughly,

"Apparently/supposedly/allegedly, my grandfather, whose storytelling I loved most, had his leg broken by the Japanese when he was young."

Goldblatt didn't do so badly after all.

[陳德聰]

@Miko869 I think you're mixed up about 据说 and how it works. It doesn't have to require a specific person doing the saying. Just because there is a person in the following part of the sentence doesn't mean that they are the agent of the 说 in 据说.

据说X

X = 我A祖父⋯右腿⋯被⋯折断

A = （我）最喜欢听他讲故事的

The A is an adjunct, meaning it's not grammatically integral to the sentence. Without the part modifying the grandfather, you would never say that the grandfather had to be the person telling this story, so why if it is an optional aspect of the sentence would it have any sort of necessary effect on 据说???

Second skylee's disagreement to #31. Edit: Oh, it's #32 now!? Something wonky with my browser not updating fast enough I guess?

[OneEye]

Precisely. The sentence could be stripped of "A" and it would be:

據説我的祖父，他的右腿年輕時，被日本人硬是折斷。

Nothing wrong there, happens all the time. It isn't exactly eloquent, but I doubt it's meant to be.

"Supposedly, my grandfather, when he was young, had his leg broken by the Japanese."

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[OneEye]

That isn't a whole sentence, it's just "My grandfather, whose storytelling I loved." But there's no story being told by grandpa there either. The fact that the narrator (I presume) enjoys his stories is just an extra tidbit of information about him. The core of that phrase is "我的祖父," while the rest is describing grandpa.

[Lu]

Goldblatt didn't do so badly after all.

Goldblatt got it exactly right, except for the part that his translation is it's a perfectly good sentence that nobody is going to misunderstand and have a discussion about :-)

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