Does this Mandarin make sense? From Yellow Bridge

[ignatz]

Hello all,

 

I'm very much a beginner studying Cantonese. My main focus is on learning the characters and etymology, so I use Yellowbridge a lot, even tho it's focus is Mandarin. (The site does give Cantonese pronunciations on the Character page; if anyone has any feedback on how accurate that is I'd appreciate hearing it.)

 

I have browsed thru the comments re: Yellowbridge on this site, and find reviews mixed but generally positive, but this example page gives me pause:

 link: http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/sentsearch.php?word=%E4%B9%83

 

Delving into the components of 牛奶 I looked up 乃 which is defined as "to be; thus; so; therefore; then; only; thereupon." So far so good, it's a phonetic component anyway, so I suppose I shouldn't even be considering it wrt etymology. (Another interesting question, which I will postpone for now. Too many digressions already :-)

 

Here's the problem: when I look at the example link (above and in text pasted below) it highlights the English words below the Mandarin. Among these words are the "so" in Johnson, and the "be" in best. This makes no sense, and makes me suspect that I'm looking at a computer translated Mandarin flavored word salad, which in turn makes me seriously doubt the veracity of Yellowbridge.

 

Here are the examples given:

Sample Sentences

攻击乃最隹之防御。

Attack is the best defense.

这包裹有八磅乃至十磅重。

The parcel weighs between eight and ten pounds.

•我遇到她乃是上上个礼拜。

It was the week before last that I met her.

•那个国家将要展示埃及木乃伊。

There will be an Egyptian mummy show in that country.

•甘乃迪一去世，詹森即继任为总统。

On Kennedy's death, Johnson succeeded.

•他继承了乃父的遗志，惟其步态似乎有些摇晃不定。

He followed in his father's footsteps, but his gait is somewhat erratic.

 

So does this Mandarin make any sense? (I do like the last expression re his father's footsteps, an idiom?)

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

[imron]

The Mandarin makes sense, it's just the highlighting that is wrong.  My guess is they're trying to do automated highlighting based on the meaning and getting it very wrong.

 

For example, the ones about the Egyptian mummy and Kennedy, 乃 is used to approximate the sounds of the words 'mummy' and 'kennedy', there's no real way to highlight that well.

[imron]

I will also add that these are really bad example sentences for that word.  Arguably only the first sentence is for 乃.  The others are actually all for other words that contain the 乃 character 乃至, 乃是, 木乃伊, 甘乃迪, 乃父

[skylee]

I think the third example is problematic, as I suppose nobody uses the word this way now. The second example is ok but again this usage is not that common now. The other examples are ok.

[imron]

The other examples are ok.

You think it's ok to use the 'Kennedy' and 'Mummy' sentences as examples of the word 乃？

 

In the context of that page where they are shown to demonstrate the meaning of the word 乃 as: "to be; thus; so; therefore; then; only; thereupon", I think they are very poor examples.  The other examples are not so good because they are for different words.  If I look up the word 'set' in English, I don't expect to see example sentences containing the word 'upset'.

[skylee]

No, I think those examples are correct sentences, i.e. the Mandarin makes sense, which is what the OP asked.

[ignatz]

So it looks like Yellowbridge gets partial credit; the Mandarin makes sense but the search and highlight function they are using to select their examples is very wrong. My original question was poorly worded as it did not encompass that possibility. Thank you.

[roddy]

Have dropped the Yellowbridge guy a line - he's posted here in the (distant) past, he may pop in and say hello. 

 

But yes, the problems here are that 

a) It's looking for the first instance of any of the words in the definition and highlighting it. So in "attack is the best defense" it highlights the 'be' of 'best' as it's in 'to be', ignoring the 'is'

b) In some of the sentences the character is used for its phonetic properties - which would be a valid example of how it's used, I guess, but you'd want to explain what's going on. 

[imron]

i.e. the Mandarin makes sense

Yes, this I agree with.

[Lu]

Also, there is a typo in the first sentence. It says 攻击乃最隹之防御。, but that 隹 should be 佳 instead.

[ignatz]

Oops - I just accidently hit the arrow that voted Roddy's post down. So sorry, can someone fix that please? I noticed that the Yellowbridge guy had some postings here a while back, apparently when he was developing the site. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.

[roddy]

It's ok, I probably deserved it for something else. Welcome to the site, anything else we can help with? 

[Kenny同志]

I have a strong feeling that the Chinese sentences have been translated from the English because almost all of them are awkward or odd in some way whereas the English is much better.

 

I will correct or improve the Chinese as follows:

攻击乃最佳之防御。【Note that this is the kind of thing that you'd come across in a book or something. In spoken Chinese, people tend to say 攻击是最好的防御. If you prefer a classical Chinese version, consider 攻，防之上者也。】

这个包裹有八到十磅重。【Note that people use the measure word 斤 in China, which equals 500g.】

我是上上周遇见她的。

该国将举办一场埃及木乃伊展。

肯尼迪死后，约翰逊随即继任总统。

【某】既承父志，然犹未决。【Note that the sense of 乃 as in 乃父 is used only in classical Chinese. And, to be consistent with the style of the original Chinese, I have translated the English in classical Chinese.】

 

 

攻击乃最隹之防御。

Attack is the best defense.

这包裹有八磅乃至十磅重。

The parcel weighs between eight and ten pounds.

•我遇到她乃是上上个礼拜。

It was the week before last that I met her.

•那个国家将要展示埃及木乃伊。

There will be an Egyptian mummy show in that country.

•甘乃迪一去世，詹森即继任为总统。

On Kennedy's death, Johnson succeeded.

•他继承了乃父的遗志，惟其步态似乎有些摇晃不定。

He followed in his father's footsteps, but his gait is somewhat erratic.

 

I suggest you stay away from the site.

 

[skylee]

Note that people use the measure word 斤 in China, which equals 500g.

 

 

??? You made it sound like that the term 磅 does not appear in Chinese or China. But China is a big country.

 

Overall I think the comments at #13 are too harsh.  But I understand that different people have different yardsticks.

[Kenny同志]

??? You made it sound like that the term 磅 does not appear in Chinese or China.

Perhaps it is used in Hong Kong, but not on the mainland. If you bump into the word in Chinese written by mainlanders, chances are you are reading a translation.

Overall I think the comments at #13 are too harsh. But I understand that different people have different yardsticks.

I just stated the fact as it was. The Chinese can function, no doubt, but it is certainly odd and extremely misleading.

[skylee]

You can use Chinese to describe things that happened in the past or in other parts of the world. But I will say no more on this subject.

[Kenny同志]

I agree, 姊姊, but frankly I don't think that’s good or appropriate for learning purposes.

[陳德聰]

攻击乃最佳之防御。【Note that this is the kind of thing that you'd come across in a book or something. In spoken Chinese, people tend to say 攻击是最好的防御. If you prefer a classical Chinese version, consider 攻，防之上者也。】

Because nobody ever reads books.

[Kenny同志]

I shouldn't have commented on topics like this. I know it all along that ever since the existence of hominids, it has been a thankless job to give constructive advice in the form of criticism. Moreover, I don't remember how many times I have helped members here with Chinese and translations, yet I often didn't even get a thanks, and now someone has voted me down!

Write whatever way you like, and take however liberal view you like. Nobody cares. Just one more remark: That a text can function does not mean that it is good.

PS: I am not angry or anything. I just want to tell those who are not thankful that I will never do any thing that is 吃力不討好 again.

[roddy]

Got an email back from Yellowbridge, changes have been made...