Another blogger setting out to learn Chinese in 3 months

[Kelby]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Benny disciple. I just used him as an example of people who do the rapid learning thing. I bought his book too, and while the book was good inspiration to read on the plane back to China, I've since removed his stuff from my resources page after going back and seeing how underwhelming the videos included are.

I have no issue with people who are going to sell e-books or software (such as people on this board with their own mailing lists or books). Some of the people on this board are employed or hoping to be employed selling Chinese learning services and I hope you have great products and I will be your customer someday. I am on some of your mailing lists and someday you may convert me to be a customer. Be authentic and tell me the real ups and downs and I will consider rewarding you with my money.

As someone interested in this online marketing without scamming old ladies thing, I agree that selling software or ebooks isn't evil anymore. Let's be honest, if you go all in on solving a huge problem that someone is having in a meaningful way at a price they can afford, they won't resent you for it and you can hardly be called a scammer. This guy's ebooks are probably very well recieved by his fans and target audience, and I'd wager they don't feel cheated out of the money they spent. After all, some people love the bloggers they read so much thst they'll even pay for more of what they write.

They're naturally not a good fit here on a Chinese learning forum though, unless you're also in his rapid learning niché. I do think there's a little bit of self-promoting ego in the learning Chinese in three months thing. After all, "it's the hardest language to learn in the world," said everyone ever. Seems like he's leaning on this famous misperception of Mandarin a bit to me.

After plenty of investigation and reading his stuff I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see where he goes.

BTW, does it seem to anyone else that the whole project seems like a higher profile version of the goals and progress thread we have here? Lol, I swear I've seen plenty of people come by and post plans of this exact flavor, it's just they don't have a high traffic blog

[Silent]

 

Speed learning has always been c*** and always will be. You will forget even faster than you crammed.

If you use it you won't forget. If you just cram, and leave it unused you will loose it but what was the point in learning it anyway (unless needed to pass a test and get a diploma)

[Elizabeth_rb]

realmayo: Part of me sees what you mean.  For instance, if I'm reading something about nutrition and it turns out that all the studies quoted show how impossible it is to get enough minerals from our food and how you need his supplements, then I begin to doubt the impartiality of the research used.  He's selling something, so what he quotes is biased in his favour.

 

However, when it comes to stuff like someone having written a book, be it an e-book that he's promoting through his own site, or one he interests a regular publisher in dealing with, I don't see that he has to give it away for free in order to be legit.  I don't see anything in my home, for instance, that someone at some point didn't make money out of.  Even the handmade items, such as the part worked cross stitch I can see, still involved money for materials and so on.  I don't know what you do for a living, but if someone were to say that, unless you did it for free, then there was a distinct chance you weren't genuine, how fair would you think that?  Actually, I think most people would feel the other way.  If they had to pay for it, they had a right to expect quality.  If it was something coming for free, well, it could be anything.

[Elizabeth_rb]

I enjoyed the idea of using the 80/20 rule as applied to learning Mandarin and have been thinking about it.  I think there's a great deal in it!

 

For people in the early stages, well, I've seen a few stay in the early stages as they're investing huge amounts of time learning to write characters and fighting with chengyu, when they'd be best advised to invest some time wisely in improving their pronunciation and learning some solid sentence structure instead!  You can get so much for relatively little, but you can get nowhere fast by investing in the wrong 80% too early.

 

For later stage learners, it's worth bearing in mind that a large portion of any language is made up on only a small number of words.  Did I read that about 100 words make up some 40% of usage?  I may have got the figures skew, but you get the point.  Chinese characters are a good example - there are a good 55000 of them, but only a few thousand are in everyday use, right?  When we've learned about 20% of the language, we get a really good level.

 

Besides, don't you have to look stuff up in an English (or other first language, if relevant) sometimes?

[Silent]

 

Actually, I think most people would feel the other way.  If they had to pay for it, they had a right to expect quality.  If it was something coming for free, well, it could be anything.

To me this sounds a bit naive. If someone has nothing to gain/lose from conveying a certain message chances are that message is honest, why wouldn't it be? The other way around, if someone has something to gain from a certain message there is a good chance the message is conveyed for the sole purpose of the gain even if the message is dishonest. Actually due to the (potential) gains there is good money paid for conveying dishonest messages (from one sided representations to straight out lies), it's called marketing.

[realmayo]

Elizabeth, I know what you mean. But with these kind of books the whole premise is: "this original approach worked for me, it will work for you too" and so to persuade someone to buy, the writer has to spin an image of himself as successful. Which naturally it's hard to 100% trust.

Yes you could say 'we all present slightly false images of ourselves every time we meet someone new', but I think there's a reason I would trust a salesperson a lot more if I met him while he was off duty and knew I would never buy the product he sells, versus if I met him at work when he'd turned up specifically to sell me his product.

[bluetortilla]

FRILL

 

 

 

Speed learning has always been c*** and always will be. You will forget even faster than you crammed.

If you use it you won't forget. If you just cram, and leave it unused you will loose it but what was the point in learning it anyway (unless needed to pass a test andget a diploma)

 

As a language teacher, every single student I came across who had gone through intensive 'speed learning' was frustrated, felt inadequate, and had gained little progress in their ability to communicate. You got the impression that they had felt cheated.

I've also seen people- definitely rare- who are able to pick up a language very quickly (I'm not one) and are able to converse in months. But they are not the norm and no amount of trying to master the basics in a few short months will make the average learner conversant. There's a lot of information to be absorbed in any language and it takes time. 

Of course we must use a language in order to keep it, but I would also go with the five year margin- if you've maintained fluency in a language for five years or more, you're not likely to forget it's basic syntax, grammar, and phonology. I just went back to Japan after two years of hardly speaking more than a few sentences of it and it came back to me just like the day I left. Odd feeling.

I guess my main point that speed learning is dubious is that anyone serious about a language of course tries hard from the very beginning. But very few of us can learn a new language in a few months and then just casually maintain it in our daily lives so that we don't forget. As we continue to use it it will continue to challenge us. For the majority of us, getting the basics down in Chinese will take ​at least ​a year if  we work hard at it. And then you're still only far enough up the mountain to afford your first fine view.

hat's been my experience with language anyway- in teaching it (with all the vying methodology), in studying, and in observing my peers (and nothing wrong with a little healthy competition there). A last example- I look at the end of the first year of the NPCR text and think that's about right for most people. If someone can do better than absorbing more that I'd say they have a talent for language. 

FRILL

[bluetortilla]

 

​

If they had to pay for it, they had a right to expect quality.  If it was something coming for free,well, it could be anything.

 

 It really goes against my principles to appear as if I might support this, but there is that old lassez-faire type cliche that says 'let the buyer beware.' I am very careful about what books I buy (and I've bought quite a bunch), but I also use tons of free resources from the web. I do buy some apps, but as far as textbook goes, maybe I'm missing it, but I just don't see any good Chinese Etexts out there. If there were I believe I'd prefer them as you can do all sorts of handy indexing with them in pdf form.

 

I'm very old fashioned and I'm sure some would consider me arrogant. But I don't think the business of the liberal arts or the sciences is business. I think its mission is the betterment of the human mind and the growth of our society. I think education should enhance our quality of life, and our experience of life. I believe that is what it is for. It certainly should not be engaged in ripping email lists and selling us get smart schemes or get rich scheme or whatever snake oil using good old academics as a prop. That's what we call charlatan, bordering on fraud.

 

But that being said, if people who buy this book find it very useful to them and their proficiency increases as a result, well then they got a good deal didn't they? One that was worth the money. But as for me, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Let the buyer beware. lol

[Silent]

 

As a language teacher, every single student I came across who had gone through intensive 'speed learning' was frustrated, felt inadequate, and had gained little progress in their ability to communicate. You got the impression that they had felt cheated.

Don't know what you mean by this, but to me this gives the impression that they didn't get much of a result in the first place. I agree that if putting in a lot of effort and you don't get result it's frustrating. But I think this has more to do with discipline and studyskills then with not forgetting what my statement was about.

 

 

But very few of us can learn a new language in a few months and then just casually maintain it in our daily lives so that we don't forget.

Define casually, sure after a couple of months it will still require effort to use it and using it just occasionally an hour or so won't keep you from forgetting as a lot of what you learned will still be unused for extensive periods of time. Time and use is needed to internalize the learned and commit it to long term memory. So drilling a few months and then occasionally use it for an hour isn't going to work. However, a three month drill like Benny did followed by living a socially active life in China  should pretty much do it and safeguard the knowledge. Nevertheless, you will forget if you don't use it for long enough. Even your native language will deteriorate, in part be forgotten, if you don't use it for extensive amount of time.

[Elizabeth_rb]

Well, yes.  Of course there are a load of rip-off merchants around and there are also a whole load of totally rotten products/books/films etc.  It behoves everyone to think and look carefully before buying anything.  However, I can't see any reason to mistrust someone who tries to make a living selling his writing from his own site just because some people produce junk.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not queueing up to buy anything (I'm completely skint anyway! ), I just don't tend to judge someone badly when I have no definite reason to do so.  Perhaps I'm just too honest!!

 

Re the idea of liberal arts and education not being a business.  That sounds to me like no author, teacher or anyone else who has ideas should ever ask a penny for their work.  They should all give it away for free.  As a teacher by profession, even though I've done plenty of ungrudging volunteer work, this doesn't sit too comfortably with me!!

 

Anyway, that's enough of that topic for me.  Back to Mandarin....

 

And good hunting to Scott on his project of trying to speak Mandarin for 3 months and learn as much as he can 

[Shelley]

Well it looks like this has turned into a hot topic

 

IMHO all this is very subjective and it depends on why you are learning Chinese. I am learning because I love the language, history and culture of china. I have been learning now for some 20 years and probably couldn't hold my own in a long and advanced level of conversation. I enjoy learning characters and their etymology, practicing my hand writing, and reading short texts. I have several text books on the go, along with a few electronic learning aids.

 

I will never be able to visit china for health reasons, I am not taking exams, I do not have any business connections with china, in fact the only reason I am learning Chinese is because I want to.

 

For these reasons I do not have any need or desire to "learn Chinese in 3 months" in fact it would the opposite of what I want.

 

Taking all this in to consideration I have to say I don't know why any one would want to learn it in only 3 months. IMHO in the first 3 months you find out what a huge enormous task you have undertaken and at the end of the 3 months you decide whether or not you want to take this subject up seriously and spend 2- 5 years or more gaining some in depth knowledge and understanding of the large and complex thing that learning Chinese is.

 

Learning Chinese has always brought to my mind an onion that you peel back the first layer and find there is more , with each layer it becomes more apparent that this onion has more layers than you imagined and is a much bigger onion then you could have ever thought possible. Layer one is akin to the first 3 months of learning after this layer you decide its just too big an onion for you to deal with or you decide to go ahead and investigate all the layers it has to offer, and not forgetting that there will be some tears along the way but there will also be delicious meals made with this crazy Chinese onion.

 

So I would be very disappointed to have my Chinese learning turned into hard work slogging away at it for 6 -8 hours a day, taking something i find enjoyable and rewarding into work. it reminds me of people who have a hobby say woodwork that they love doing then they decide to make their living at it, before long their beloved hobby is no more then dreaded hard work needing to be done from 9 - 5 to pay the bills.

 

I wish anyone good luck who needs to learn fast for their own good reasons but I would urge you not to take this road if you don't have to.

[tysond]

It has become a bit of a hot topic :-)    Basically, my overall view is that in a rapidly changing word, being able to learn fast is very valuable.

 

1. Thinking about how quickly/efficiently we learn has value.  I personally had experiences of myself/friends completing 2 years learning in a year, or doing 150% courseloads at university, that made me realize there is a deliberate pacing to education that has more to do with society than the ability of a human brain to learn.  I believe we could all be Dougie Houser, although maybe we don't need to be.  My point is, your brain is probably more capable than you've been led to believe.

 

2. I really enjoy the introspection on the learning process.  My job involves teaching adult professionals in their jobs.  I am not sure that all the great thinking I see on forums such as this has migrated successfully into the instructional design that I am required to use.  I am challenged to get the most out of an employee within their first 3-6 months on the job - so understanding how people do 3 month challenges is incredibly useful to me professionally.  For someone like this blogger, learning Chinese is a test of the techniques they have developed and described.

 

3. Of course sustaining such speed learning is an issue for people who are "browsing".  They won't have to use it afterwards, and the cost of maintenance may be too high.  Doesn't mean they didn't learn something about learning.  Those of us living in Chinese speaking environments have a wonderful opportunity to sustain knowledge.  My wife did 3 weeks intense learning and has maintained much of it for a year due to living in Beijing (it slips a little, but not a lot), and she still beats the pants off expat wives of the "1 hour a week for the first few months then nothing" variety.  I would wholeheartedly recommend speed learning for people who are about to enter an immersive environment, and have the time to apply to it, and know they will learn what they are going to use.    People who say "oh it doesn't count if you can't do it for 5 years" are of course, in a sense, right.  But try telling an employer that "oh you can't judge how well I learned how to do my job until 5 years have passed".  Actually this means world changes faster than you can adapt to it.

 

4. Money.  It makes the world go around.  If I work hard to make money, and am not able to spend it with people who can help me achieve my goals, then the world is a sad place indeed. People are specialized.  Those who are specialized in learning Chinese can help me.  If they can't make money out of this... they will have to go do something else, and will have less expertise in learning Chinese.  We both lose.  I don't like slimy internet marketing either, but I appreciate someone who for a reasonable price gives me something of value. So we all need to fight through the slime and find the gold.  I really appreciate the product/service reviews on this forum for helping to do that.  

[戴 睿]

I would wholeheartedly recommend speed learning for people who are about to enter an immersive environment, and have the time to apply to it, and know they will learn what they are going to use.

This. Speed learning, used preparatory to and in combination with immersion, brings functionality. Then, if you maintain said functionality, it becomes sustained capacity.

But in the end, I agree with Imron.

Three months might let you 80/20 you're way to functioning in artificially controlled social situations.

5 years is the sort of price you pay for excellence.

Still, I think that a lot of the dispute about the 3 month claims would be shored up if people better understood the motives of these kinds of people. They aren't like you. They don't take the time, for instance, to write on the forums and contribute to a collective learning community - because for them, Chinese learning is not necessarily a passion. More like a novelty challenge. In 3 months, they'll move on to something else and you'll still be here.

These sorts of "fluency (functionality) in three months" claims always seem to cause serious learners to make unnecessary comparisons between themselves and the other party, when in reality we are fundamentally different than him.

[bluetortilla]

 

 

Define casually, sure after a couple of months it will still require effort to use it and using it just occasionally an hour or so won't keep you from forgetting as a lot of what you learned will still be unused for extensive periods of time. Time and use is needed to internalize the learned and commit it to long term memory. So drilling a few months and then occasionally use it for an hour isn't going to work. However, a three month drill like Benny did followed by living a socially active life in China  should pretty much do it and safeguard the knowledge. Nevertheless, you will forget if you don't use it for long enough. Even your native language will deteriorate, in part be forgotten, if you don't use it for extensive amount of time.

 

Yes, I too think that's realistic and a good observation. But you see, the point is that you did not in fact learn a language in three months. In reality the acquisition extend into a year or two (five I'd say to really make it stick). So the whole premise is bogus isn't it? A gimmick, right?

At least for the 95% of us who aren't language geniuses. 

[Elizabeth_rb]

Some parts of this discussion have made me think of the old difficulty in actually defining fluency.  Some people say that it means speaking the second language as well as you do your first, whereas others have the goalposts set in more achievable location!  I remember e-mailing a former student (I used to run the aural class for first years on a Chinese degree programme) and we were talking about the second year, which was to be spent in 10-20 hour a week classes in China or Taiwan.  I told him that this year should get their fluency up so that they'd be able to cope with the demands of the final two years at home.  I defined fluency then, as I do now, as 'not knowing everything in the second language, but using what you do so well that no-one can really tell the difference.'  It seems to me that some of these 'language collectors' who do one lang for three months, then move on to the next and so on, are looking at something like that when they say 'fluent in three months', very probably even with less breadth (depending on the time spent and the aptitude of the collector).

[bluetortilla]

 

4. Money.  It makes the world go around.  If I work hard to make money, and am not able to spend it with people who can help me achieve my goals, then the world is a sad place indeed. People are specialized.  Those who are specialized in learning Chinese can help me.  If they can't make money out of this... they will have to go do something else, and will have less expertise in learning Chinese.  We both lose.  I don't like slimy internet marketing either, but I appreciate someone who for a reasonable price gives me something of value. So we all need to fight through the slime and find the gold.  I really appreciate the product/service reviews on this forum for helping to do that.  

 

 

Sir, I cannot help but to point out to you that it is not money but the laws of physics that make the earth rotate. That cliche about money (the others being 'time is money' and 'money talks' ) is old, worn, and only justifies a way of thinking that puts profits first and people last. I find people appreciate me best not when I spend my money on them, but rather when I give them my time.

I don't mean to be going way off track here (the topic being 'learn a language in a ridiculously short amount of time') but I do feel obliged to challenge this assumption that making money is in itself a great thing or that we can lower our ethical standards, even when it comes to education, when it comes to making a buck. At best, speed learning reminds of diet fads or herbs that won't hurt you but won't help you either.

The reaction to this ebook on this forum (and I hold that this forum is indeed excellent in quality) has been heated and interesting. I don't think he's gotten any recommendation, and we all pretty much agree on the dubious merits of this case. I agree with what you say as well about many of us not knowing or realizing our own potential, and in that sense I think life may be approached from a fairly aggressive angle. If we all realized just how smart we are the world would be far better off. We all also know that methods on paper don't translate exactly into how we actually learn. In truth, we are all different and learn differently and the need to innovate is great for both instructor and student. But I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater either. I still heavily rely on grammar-translation methods (I even call them 'communicative') simply because they work well. I think we all use a variety of strategies to suit our needs and that is of course rational. I too think the world has changed but there nothing 'new' about that- the paradigms around us are always shifting. What doesn't seem to change is the fact that people have always been trying to sell things and there doesn't seem to be any end to that in the imaginable future. And that's why if you buy carefully you're far less likely to end with something worthless. Charlatan wares have a certain look and feel to them that should set off 'avoid this' alarm bells in most people. Unfortunately I've been ripped off online a few times too when I should have known better. And any sort of 'learn something in just so many days' scheme definitely sets off alarms. Further, I prefer texts written by experienced professors sold through reputable venues. Don't most people?

In reality we all need to devise our own approach to learning, and ways to cope if we have to memorize a lot in short amount of time. I don't think that sort of thing can be taught, although it may be inspired. 

[bluetortilla]

 

 

Some parts of this discussion have made me think of the old difficulty in actually defining fluency.  Some people say that it means speaking the second language as well as you do your first, whereas others have the goalposts set in more achievable location!  

 

I think this brings up a very interesting point about language ability. And add to the list the tens of millions who can read and comprehend a language well enough to study textbooks and pass tests, but can barely speak the target language at all! 

In fairness, I would think fluency implies smoothness in speech that is comprehensible to 'mainstream' native speakers, aural ability to the point of being capable of responding appropriately even when the speech was not fully understood, and (I guess this is the debatable part) at least a higher primary school ability in reading and writing. That's my subjective view on fluency. I'd say if you can talk with native speakers for an hour in their language without getting stymied or tired, you're fluent.

So that leaves all the poor test masters out of the equation unfortunately. 

MW defines it fluency as:

: the ability to speak easily and smoothly; especially : the ability to speak a foreign language easily and effectively

: the ability to do something in a way that seems very easy

 

that leaves a lot of room open for interpretation!

[Elizabeth_rb]

Well, bluetortilla, by your definition, I'm fluent!     Even to the 'on a level with kids' bit.  We were reading something with a 8/9 year old not so long ago and we seemed to have a similar reading level (should be better, but I'm lazy about reading in another language).  Sometimes we knew something he didn't, sometimes the other way around.

 

I hope to make it to age 13 at some point!

 

You know, this thread makes me really grateful that I blog embroidery and textiles.  Perhaps every so often someone sneers at me for something, say doing cross stitch when most of my readership wants advanced techniques and the fact that the majority of my tutorials aren't original (I take photos and then produce a set of instructions based on an element of a kit I've done etc, although I do say so clearly), and cancels their subscription, but I don't get people questioning my motives, my moral standards, my trustworthiness and so on!  Strikes me as there's a whole squad of people out there who want a whole load of stuff for free and as soon as someone asks a couple of quid/bucks for it, then that person suddenly becomes intrinsically bad.  That despite the fact that we rarely question the motives of people who sell us all the other products and services we pay for on a regular basis....Bleuch!

[roddy]

If anyone wants to check out the free ebook or chapter, or whatever it is, without signing up for the newsletter, the first page says 

This e-book is completely free. If you like the book, 

share it with whoever you can. You're free to upload, 

print, e-mail or fax this book as much as you want to 

whoever you want.

So here you go. It's also linked to directly elsewhere on his site. 

 

I'm going to email the guy and see if he wants to join in. 

HolisticLearningEBook.pdf

[Elizabeth_rb]

Not only that, but you can also unsub from the mailing list!