Moving Family to China

[liuzhou]

Imron

 

Please don't remove this blatant advertising post until I find out more about the promised 

 

 

Marital arts classes

[Meng Lelan]

Martial arts, that's what I want. I've divorced already ten years so don't need the marital arts class. 

[Guangxi Shane]

@gato, thanks for the link to the Shanghai Expat Forum.

 

#16, Sorry, I don't understand what you mean? Racism against whom? "Get our act together" in what way?

 

@Simon_CH, Yeah, it sounds like the pollution in Beijing is pretty horrible. The last time I was there was in the summer of 1995. At that time most regular people were still getting around on bicycles, so the pollution wasn't that bad yet, at least in the summertime. We may visit Beijing this time around, but we're not planning on living there. Doesn't it bother you to live in a place where the air quality is so bad?

 

@Herberbt, Aloha Bryan, and thanks for posting. A couple of months ago I emailed back and forth a few times with your Director of Admissions, Nancy Fried. She was really nice and full of useful information, just like you. We would love to spend a year in Guilin studying at CLI, and we're definitely still considering that. It sounds like you guys have everything all worked out already as far as accommodations, good teachers, food, etc. Our only concern with going to CLI is the cost. I decided to post on Chinese-forums to see if there might be a way for us to maybe sign up directly with a university and find some kind of informal babysitting/tutoring situation for our daughter that would make it more affordable for us so that we could spend a whole year in China without having to worry about working at jobs to support ourselves. As you can see by reading the posts above, most of the members of this board are pretty negative (realistic?) about our prospects for having a good experience in China just going there without any Chinese ability to speak of. So, maybe we need to think more about creative ways that we can make a year in Guilin studying at CLI a reality for ourselves. Your offer to help facilitate English teaching jobs for us is one way that we could perhaps earn some money while we're there which would help to offset the costs of studying and living in China. Thanks for the heads up on the Sunny School in Guilin. I emailed the school to get more information. When it gets closer to the time when we're actually ready to go to China I'll email you guys directly through your website to get more details on exactly how much it's going to cost and figure out how we can afford to pay for it.

 

@Lu, You're right that we can expose our daughter and ourselves to Chinese culture here in Hawaii, and we're definitely doing that as much as possible. Yesterday I started listening to the first 2 lessons on the Pimsleur Basic Mandarin CDs that we got from the library. I'm lucky that my job brings me into contact with Chinese tourists every day, so I have many opportunities to try out the phrases that I'm learning in my self-study on real live native Chinese speakers. When I get the pronunciation and tones right and the tourists understand what I'm saying and respond in Chinese it's a great motivation booster. It makes me want to keep trying to learn more. 

[Simon_CH]

 

@Simon_CH, Yeah, it sounds like the pollution in Beijing is pretty horrible. The last time I was there was in the summer of 1995. At that time most regular people were still getting around on bicycles, so the pollution wasn't that bad yet, at least in the summertime. We may visit Beijing this time around, but we're not planning on living there. Doesn't it bother you to live in a place where the air quality is so bad?

 

It does, and I moan about it like everyone else around me. But currently it's just cold with a blue sky, so it's not always bad. But yeah, I too cough more than I like to admit, and it's not a healthy place to stay in the long term. But I'm a healthy adult, not a young kid, so I can tough it out for a while.

 

And besides, I quite like my life here, and so do many others. Some leave, more than ever I hear but they are replaced by newcomers generally.

China is a strange beast, it doesn't attract the same people as Vienna, Austria for example would (#1 quality of life index by Mercer), simply because it's not an obvious choice for people with families. Among the long-termers you have different reasons why they choose to stay. Some genuinely like it, others have few others choices, others dread reintegrating into "real life" back home, and and some have just invested too much into China/Chinese to leave.

 

If you weren't travelling with a kid I would fully support your plans and tell you to go for it without a second thought.

[Flickserve]

Just to add my two cents. Immersion for the child is very important in picking up the language. I remember going to a Bahasa Malay school at 6 years old, being in a class of 40 kids. I actually started picking a bit of the language up before being whisked back to the UK after a month or so.

What are the objectives for the girl? Everybody says it's a bad idea to stick her into a Chinese school. However, this comes from a perspective of trying to keep up with the chinese system and doing well in it for long term.

If the OP doesn't mind, it might be better to place his daughter down a year or two. And then see how she copes. She may love learning and accelerate quickly and then it's a judgement call. She may progress at a normal rate which she will pick up the language.

She may do poorly but does it matter in the larger context? The objective is to learn mandarin and have her have some familiarity with it. It's more important to gain the verbal skills rather than the academic side in the first instance. Would it really be a disadvantage if she was in a local Chinese school for a year when the plan is to return to the US system after a year?

However, there is one thing I do recommend if moving the child to China. It's definitely to find an interest class outside of school that uses mandarin. That definitely helps. I send my children to badminton where the coach uses Chinese. I feel it can only help a child to use the language in context when doing something that is more animated compared to sitting at a table.

[Guangxi Shane]

China is a strange beast, it doesn't attract the same people as Vienna, Austria for example would (#1 quality of life index by Mercer), simply because it's not an obvious choice for people with families. Among the long-termers you have different reasons why they choose to stay. Some genuinely like it, others have few others choices, others dread reintegrating into "real life" back home, and and some have just invested too much into China/Chinese to leave.

 

@Simon_CH, You're right, Vienna is an awesome place to live. I studied there for a year during college, and then went back after I graduated and worked and lived there for 2 more years. I enjoyed my time in Wien and still have good memories of the people, food, beer, wine, and just the amazing atmosphere of being surrounded by hundreds of years of history and culture wherever you go in the city. In Vienna I lived most of the time in the 2nd District, near Schwedenplatz, right close to downtown. After living in Austria for 3 years, in a really urban environment, I moved to a really rural part of NW Honshu in Japan, where I taught English for 2 years. For almost the past 20 years I've lived here in Hawaii, and most of that time's been spent living on a farm in a really beautiful, rural part of the Big Island. It's awesome here. We love it. I have a good job. A friend told me the other day that I would have to be "crazy" to give up the job that I have. But somehow, something inside of me is looking for a new adventure - something challenging and exciting. I don't want to work at the same job for 20 more years, retire and then be too old and sick and tired to follow my dreams...

 

What are the objectives for the girl? Everybody says it's a bad idea to stick her into a Chinese school. However, this comes from a perspective of trying to keep up with the chinese system and doing well in it for long term. 

If the OP doesn't mind, it might be better to place his daughter down a year or two. And then see how she copes. She may love learning and accelerate quickly and then it's a judgement call. She may progress at a normal rate which she will pick up the language. 

She may do poorly but does it matter in the larger context? The objective is to learn mandarin and have her have some familiarity with it. It's more important to gain the verbal skills rather than the academic side in the first instance. Would it really be a disadvantage if she was in a local Chinese school for a year when the plan is to return to the US system after a year? 

 

 

@Flickserve, I agree with you. We're not too concerned about our daughter missing out on any really important academic stuff by not being in an American school for a year or two, especially at her young age. Of course, we're going to continue encouraging our daughter's love of reading, art and dance and keep talking with her in English no matter where we go.

 

A couple of nights ago I met a Japanese girl who's a senior in high school and is an exchange student at one of our local high schools. I was joking around with one of my coworkers and asked him a question in Mandarin, which he couldn't really answer. All of a sudden this Japanese girl who's just sitting there all quietly answers my question and starts speaking to me in fluent Mandarin. I was really excited because this gave me an opportunity to use one of the few Chinese phrases I've learned so far. I asked the girl, nǐ shì zhōngguórén ma? And she answered right back, bú shì. I was all out of Chinese phrases, so I asked the girl in Japanese how she'd learned to speak such good Mandarin? The girl told me that when she was in 3rd Grade her dad had been transferred to Beijing for 2 years. Although the girl's parents could've easily afforded to send her to an expensive private school in Beijing, they instead chose to enroll her in a regular public grade school, and as a result, now the girl speaks fluent Mandarin! Even if my daughter doesn't learn a lot of regular academic stuff, if she can just be exposed to the culture and learn to be proficient in the language after a couple of years, that would be good enough for me. In an earlier post, Bryan from Chinese Language Institute recommended the Guilin Sunny School. It sounds like there's mostly Chinese kids in the school, but there are also some expats' kids and there are several young, smiling American teachers working in the school's International Program. Apparently half of the day is in Chinese and the other half of the day is taught in English. So, it sounds like it may be perfect for our daughter. It won't be all Chinese, all the time, and it's not super expensive, so it looks like we may be able to afford to send our daughter there if my wife and I decide to move to Guilin to do CLI's intensive Mandarin program...

 

@Flickserve, are you living in China? If so, where? How do you like it?

[Johnny20270]

A friend told me the other day that I would have to be "crazy" to give up the job that I have. But somehow, something inside of me is looking for a new adventure - something challenging and exciting. I don't want to work at the same job for 20 more years, retire and then be too old and sick and tired to follow my dreams...

 

 

Guangxi Shane

 

I have read this thread with interest. Its a difficult one to be honest. Personally I think you should do it! I am of the nature that we should take opportunities in life and take a chance rather than sit at home looking at the world go by. You have hit the nail of the head with your statement above. 

 

 

Just to be a little facetious here... Even though we are all different, I get the feeling you think china will be better than it actually is. Personally (and really this is just my personal view!) I think China is actually a a hard and pretty crap country to live in, compared to the western world. More and more now,  when I see really lovely people here, getting paid bugger all and having a hard life I really thank god I have a European passport. 

 

This is  not to condescend China, its more just to have a reality check when comparing it to your home lifestyle in Hawaii (which is a great place lol) You may be very happy with the perceived 'lower' standards or it may bother you a great deal but its something to consider. Before I came to China I saw far too much hype about the country and how great the place is.  Its very easy to over look things when on holiday that actually living here. Things which seem unusual or quaint on holidays become a downright pain in the behind when faced with it daily. But it gets better and like anywhere you acclimatise

 

But you know, that's a life experience and that is worth a lot more that my cosy lifestyle back home. You may feel the same.

 

 

@Flickserve, I agree with you. We're not too concerned about our daughter missing out on any really important academic stuff by not being in an American school for a year or two, especially at her young age. Of course, we're going to continue encouraging our daughter's love of reading, art and dance and keep talking with her in English no matter where we go.

 

 

 

I wouldn't see this an issue at all, In anycase, if you really don't like it or it turns out to be a bad move, just pack up and leave. You certainly won't be the first family to move to an alien country without the language. A lot of the UK is like that.

 

Go for it (but be smart about it)  is my 2 cents

[Johnny20270]

We help all of our students acquire visas for their visits to china. As you already read elsewhere on the internet, it is common for students to temporarily come to China on a tourist visa and then switch to a long-term (one-year) student visa. 

 

 

 

Bryan

 

I have one comment to make on the visa topic.  I really do feel that almost all language schools avoid the "elephant in the room". That is the long term visa issue. Very simply, can your language school in long term X1 visas, i.e. can you give a JW202 form? I do want to point this out as the OP is planning to move for a considerable time  so it may be an issue if he moves with his family. 

 

It frustrated me a lot this one topic as most schools I spoke to have to made vague answers  along the lies of "don't  worry, we can sort it out but please pay up in full". Not meaning to insinuate your school is doing the same but you did state -

 

"it is common for students to temporarily come to China on a tourist visa and then switch to a long-term (one-year) student visa"

 

So it leads me to believe CLI can do it.

[Lu]

The girl told me that when she was in 3rd Grade her dad had been transferred to Beijing for 2 years. Although the girl's parents could've easily afforded to send her to an expensive private school in Beijing, they instead chose to enroll her in a regular public grade school, and as a result, now the girl speaks fluent Mandarin!

I do wonder what her experience was as a Japanese girl in an all-Chinese school. Japan is not exactly the most loved country in China. Must have been an unpleasant experience for her when her class was learning about the Second World War.

You daughter will probably have a better time than that Japanese girl, and you can be sure she soon speaks Mandarin just as well as Chinese children her age. But you do need to take into account whether she will be happy. School life in China is very competitive, parents get their children tutoring as early as possible, and especially in the beginning your daughter will lag behind. I'm sure you as her parents don't mind that in the least, but her teacher and classmates will.

[Flickserve]

@Guangxi Shane

I live in Hong Kong. My children learnt Mandarin at school and supplemented by some tutorials. It's not good to have Cantonese around the school. I think it's a detriment. I hardly ever go to China as work doesn't take me there and my close family don't live there either. Still, I will be planning to visit more often and that's got me interested in learning more mandarin. I am half fluent in Cantonese with much of the deeper vocabulary over my head. Watching the local news is tricky but I don't work on my Cantonese so that is to be expected.

Those last few posts about culture shock are relevant. Given that you have travelled and lived overseas before, then the experience will be that of having a child in tow.

Again, for Lu's point, it really depends on the expectations. Would you really expect your daughter to be top of the class? Would it hurt her self esteem to be near the bottom? For me, personally, with a plan of returning to US, it sounds less of an issue when compared against the broader context of learning a culture and language.

I can see this easily extending to two years in China.

Interesting story about the Japanese girl. A bit easier for her since she has experience with Chinese characters but still a massive challenge in secondary school.

[Guangxi Shane]

Bryan

 

I have one comment to make on the visa topic.  I really do feel that almost all language schools avoid the "elephant in the room". That is the long term visa issue. Very simply, can your language school in long term X1 visas, i.e. can you give a JW202 form? I do want to point this out as the OP is planning to move for a considerable time  so it may be an issue if he moves with his family. 

 

It frustrated me a lot this one topic as most schools I spoke to have to made vague answers  along the lies of "don't  worry, we can sort it out but please pay up in full". Not meaning to insinuate your school is doing the same but you did state -

 

"it is common for students to temporarily come to China on a tourist visa and then switch to a long-term (one-year) student visa"

 

So it leads me to believe CLI can do it.

 

@Johnny20270, On CLI's website they mention that they have some sort of a relationship with Guangxi Normal University. Maybe that's how they get visas for their students? If Bryan's still around, maybe he can confirm for us. Here's what it says under FAQ's on CLI's website:

 

1. Does CLI provide its students with a student (F) visa?

Students enrolling for three or more months will receive full assistance in obtaining a student (F) visa or student (X) visa. Payments associated with visa processing are the responsibility of the student. Short-term students are advised to obtain a tourist (L) visa. Regardless of program length, all students should travel to Guilin on a tourist (L) visa. Students applying for a student visa will begin the application process upon arrival in China and will receive their visa within four weeks.

 

 

[Guangxi Shane]

You daughter will probably have a better time than that Japanese girl, and you can be sure she soon speaks Mandarin just as well as Chinese children her age. But you do need to take into account whether she will be happy. School life in China is very competitive, parents get their children tutoring as early as possible, and especially in the beginning your daughter will lag behind. I'm sure you as her parents don't mind that in the least, but her teacher and classmates will. 

 

@Lu, Unfortunately, I didn't get to talk very much with the Japanese girl I met on Saturday evening. The girl's a volunteer at the place where I work, so hopefully she'll come back again and I'll get to ask her more questions about her experience as a Japanese girl attending a public school in China. It's hard for me to believe that young Chinese children (3rd to 5th grade, in this case) hold much animosity against the Japanese because of what they did in WWII. The U.S. dropped a couple of atomic bombs on Japan, but Japanese people were pretty nice to me while I was there. Japan bombed Pearl Harbor on Oahu, but I'm pretty sure most people living in Hawaii today hold no anger towards the Japanese because of what they did to us over 70 years ago. My wife is Japanese American. Her grandparents immigrated to Hawaii about 100+ years ago. She and I have travelled all over Asia, to countries where the Japanese military did horrible things, but we've never really had any problems. Interestingly, I know some older Japanese people, 70+ years old, who seem to hate the Chinese. They don't come right out and say it, but I kind of get that sense from the way they talk about China.

 

It sounds like the International Program at the Sunny School in Guilin will be a good fit for our daughter. In the morning the classes will be all in Chinese, which will, at least initially, be really challenging for our daughter, but in the afternoon all of the classes will be taught by American teachers in English, which will be really easy for our daughter. So, in the morning she may have to deal with being one of the least proficient Chinese speakers and maybe have to ask for help from her classmates and teachers when she doesn't understand what's going on, but in the afternoons our daughter will be in a position to be at the top of her class, and she'll be able to help her classmates who may be struggling with English. To me that sounds perfect.

[Guangxi Shane]

I live in Hong Kong. My children learnt Mandarin at school and supplemented by some tutorials. It's not good to have Cantonese around the school. I think it's a detriment. I hardly ever go to China as work doesn't take me there and my close family don't live there either. Still, I will be planning to visit more often and that's got me interested in learning more mandarin. I am half fluent in Cantonese with much of the deeper vocabulary over my head. Watching the local news is tricky but I don't work on my Cantonese so that is to be expected. 

 

@Flickserve, Wow, I give you credit if you can speak Cantonese! I met a guy from Guangdong the other night, and he told me that Cantonese has 9 tones! I'm struggling with just 4 tones in Mandarin, so I have a lot of respect for anyone who can recognize and produce 9 different tones.

[Lu]

hopefully she'll come back again and I'll get to ask her more questions about her experience as a Japanese girl attending a public school in China. It's hard for me to believe that young Chinese children (3rd to 5th grade, in this case) hold much animosity against the Japanese because of what they did in WWII.

China is not Hawaii or Japan. Do ask her if you meet her again, but try to keep an open mind and don't go into the conversation not believing that children won't hate Japanese people. It's not unlikely that the only thing Chinese schoolchildren know about Japan is that the Japanese did horrible things to the Chinese in WW2, and it might very well affect their attitude to a Japanese classmate (not to mention that it can be quite unpleasant to sit in class hearing that your country did bad things to the country of your classmates).

[Guangxi Shane]

Just to be a little facetious here... Even though we are all different, I get the feeling you think china will be better than it actually is. Personally (and really this is just my personal view!) I think China is actually a a hard and pretty crap country to live in, compared to the western world. More and more now,  when I see really lovely people here, getting paid bugger all and having a hard life I really thank god I have a European passport. 

 

This is  not to condescend China, its more just to have a reality check when comparing it to your home lifestyle in Hawaii (which is a great place lol) You may be very happy with the perceived 'lower' standards or it may bother you a great deal but its something to consider. Before I came to China I saw far too much hype about the country and how great the place is.  Its very easy to over look things when on holiday that actually living here. Things which seem unusual or quaint on holidays become a downright pain in the behind when faced with it daily. But it gets better and like anywhere you acclimatise

 

But you know, that's a life experience and that is worth a lot more that my cosy lifestyle back home. You may feel the same.

 

@Johnny20270, Thanks for the reality check. I'm glad to hear realistic appraisals of the life in China from people who are living there. That's one of the reasons I posted here on this board. But, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting myself into. Like you, I'm grateful to have a passport from a cushy Western country and money in the bank so that if we really get sick of things, my family and I can just hop on a plane and fly home to Hawaii. My expectation isn't that we're going to move to China and everything will be all wonderful and perfect. I know there are going to be great challenges and inconveniences for us living in China, but I hope that, overall, it'll be a positive experience for all of us.

[Johnny20270]

@Johnny20270, Thanks for the reality check. I'm glad to hear realistic appraisals of the life in China from people who are living there. That's one of the reasons I posted here on this board. But, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting myself into. Like you, I'm grateful to have a passport from a cushy Western country and money in the bank so that if we really get sick of things, my family and I can just hop on a plane and fly home to Hawaii. My expectation isn't that we're going to move to China and everything will be all wonderful and perfect. I know there are going to be great challenges and inconveniences for us living in China, but I hope that, overall, it'll be a positive experience for all of us.

 

 

 

very good, I have no regrets coming here (despite my daily whinge lol) as the 

 

Another thought occurred to me. Although I personally would rather be outside of Beijing / shanghai as its not very 'Chinese' ... if you understand my meaning, it can be somewhat easier which is not to be overlook. You can basically get by without any Chinese at all (which is on the whole a bad thing) but it might be a easier transition if you have family going with you.  

 

And on the Visa topic ... yes, my comment is not to cast any negative light on Brian's school. Clarity seems hard to come by at times. (I have run into another visa issue here which is downright annoying!)

[imron]

Although I personally would rather be outside of Beijing / shanghai as its not very 'Chinese

I know quite a few Beijingers and Shanghainese who might disagree with you on that point.

[realmayo]

Pah! A mere 3% of the population.... 

[Johnny20270]

I know quite a few Beijingers and Shanghainese who might disagree with you on that point.

 

 

 

Because Sanlitun, CBD and all the Pizza huts, Starbucks, KFC's, Tout de Jours, westernized shops all with English on them and westernized restaurants littered about the place are stero-typically "Chinese"?

 

Joking aside: that's what I meant with the follow up bit of ... "if you know what I mean". .... Its easy to live here for years and not know a single word of Chinese, completely avoid Chinese food, a Chinese life style and so on. The few western people I know and friends of friends have lived in shanghai for years on end and barely know 你好, have no interest in Chinese food, culture etc They aret here for work. But they would not find it so easy if they were dropped into Chendu or somewhere

 

My point is I believe one would be be more inclined to integrate more into a Chinese lifestyle in a smaller place. The frequency of good English speakers will be less (through lack of westernized facilities and shops). For example: in shanghai&Beijing, its simple to get around using the metro. In Kunming you are forced to work out streets, use taxis, buses etc. Just human nature. Same with many other countries

 

 

[Edit: my comment is more of a reflection of the place, not the people of course if that clears up any confusion]

 

 

 

[Guangxi Shane]

 

 

China is not Hawaii or Japan. Do ask her if you meet her again, but try to keep an open mind and don't go into the conversation not believing that children won't hate Japanese people. It's not unlikely that the only thing Chinese schoolchildren know about Japan is that the Japanese did horrible things to the Chinese in WW2, and it might very well affect their attitude to a Japanese classmate (not to mention that it can be quite unpleasant to sit in class hearing that your country did bad things to the country of your classmates). 

 

@Lu, the Japanese girl came back, and I got to talk with her a couple nights ago. She told me that before she and her family went to China her parents had been very concerned about the possibility you mentioned of her Chinese classmates treating her poorly because of atrocities committed by the Japanese military during WWII. The girl told me that her parents' fears turned out to be unfounded. She said that, partly because her parents had prepared her ahead of time, she went out of her way to be especially humble and nice to her Chinese classmates, and in return, she said, they were very nice to her. The girl said that overall her 2 years in China were a very good, positive experience for her. The girl also shared that her parents had hired a Chinese language tutor to prepare her ahead of time for about a year before going to Beijing, and that she had also had tutors to supplement her Chinese language learning during the 2 years that she was living and studying in China. Probably the fact that she had already begun learning Chinese characters in Japan and the Chinese tutoring, both before and during her time in China, helped her a lot to not feel totally lost in an all Chinese classroom.

 

Although my daughter is ethnically Chinese, she doesn't know any Chinese language other than, "nǐhǎo" and "xiè xie," so I think we're going to need to work on her knowledge of Chinese language a lot more before we go to China. We have some DVDs and flash cards designed for kids, so we're starting to work with our daughter now so that she can hopefully have at least a little bit of Chinese language ability when we arrive in China. We're also thinking of timing our arrival in China so that there are some months free before the regular school year starts so that we can have our daughter attend intensive Mandarin lessons before starting school.