New-style "chengyu"

[Demonic_Duck]

The story of 塞翁失马 is also a meme.

[Angelina]

Not exactly. It wasn't invented with the intention to make it a meme. The problem with modern Internet memes is Dawkins and the whole might makes it right mindset.

[Demonic_Duck]

Replied to you in a new thread here.

[Kenny同志]

@Duck

 

I am afraid 塞翁失馬 - you only gave the first part of the whole idiom; the second part is 焉知非福, is fundamentally different from those internet slang words. It's an allusion to an old household story (see below).

 

近塞上之人有善术者。马无故亡而入胡。人皆吊之，其父曰：“此何遽不为福乎？”居数月，其马将胡骏马而归。人皆贺之，其父曰：“此何遽不能为祸乎？”家富良马，其子好骑，堕而折其髀（读音bì，股，大腿）。人皆吊之，其父曰：“此何遽不为福乎？”居一年，胡人大入塞，丁壮者引弦而战，近塞之人，死者十九，此独以跛之故，父子相保。——《淮南子·人间训》

 

 

The meaning is pretty clear 邊塞上的一位老者丟了馬，怎麼知道這就不是一件好事呢.

 

塞：border region

翁：old man

失：lose

馬：horse

 

塞修飾翁，意思合為邊塞上的一位老者，故塞翁失馬，義即邊塞上的一位老者丟了馬。

 

焉: how

知: know

非: not/be not

福: good thing

 

焉知非福，如何知道（丟馬之事）就不是一件好事呢。

[skylee]

This thread has reminded me of a poster I saw this morning. It was posted outside a Japanese Department store. At top there is "街で遊ぶ、楽しく歩く。" (or something similar), below it is 街遊楽歩.

Regarding 街遊楽歩， is it concise? Yes. Do I understand what it means? Yes. Does it convey the full meaning? Probably. Is it a chengyu? No, though you can find it on some Taiwanese websites. It is a slogan. Will it become a chengyu? I don't know. Will I use it as a chengyu? No.

I hold the same view regarding those mentioned in #1.

[Demonic_Duck]

@Duck

 

I am afraid 塞翁失馬 - you only gave the first part of the whole idiom; the second part is 焉知非福, is fundamentally different from those internet slang words. It's an allusion to an old household story (see below).

 

By analogy:

 

I'm afraid “十动然拒” is not the full sentence; the full sentence is “十分感动，然后拒绝了他”. It's a allusion to a story which became popular a couple of years ago (see below).

 

2012年11月11日，华中科技大学文华学院男生王文瑾，向他心仪的女生送出了一封他用212天时间写的16万字情书。这封情书的内容包括散文、诗歌等多种文体，内容主要是回忆两人在一起做的事或借景抒怀。他将其装订成册并取名《我不愿让你一个人》。女孩十分感动，然后拒绝了他。^[1]

 

(Taken from 百度百科.)

[陳德聰]

Fight the good fight, Duck.

[Kenny同志]

 If you could read classical Chinese, I would not even need to explain the huge difference between 塞翁失馬, 焉知非福 and 十動然拒.

 

Whether the former is a full sentence or not is irrelevant.  What is important is that both 塞翁失馬 and 焉知非福 are complete in sense in their own right; 十動然拒 is not.

 

Now I repeat:

塞：border region

翁：old man

失：lose

馬：horse

Put together, these four characters mean border-region old man lost horse(s).

 

焉: how

知: know

非: not/be not

福: good thing

Put together, these four characters mean how (you) know (it) is not good thing.

Note: ‘it’ and ‘you’ are added solely for the sake of English grammar. Classical Chinese works differently and can do without the pronouns here.

 

十(ten)=very?

動(move)=moved?

然(so)=then?

拒(refuse)=refuse

ten move so refuse=very moved (and) then refuse?

 

The absurdity of the slang word cannot be more obvious.

[Angelina]

Slang has its own meaning. Slang has the potential to become accepted by more and more people. Even if dictionaries deny the entry of such items, they can't stop slang from becoming standard language.

I honestly hope people won't be as familiar with 十动然拒 as they are with some age old wisdom.

Luckily for you, you have the Great Firewall. It's not good for creativity, yet, it's a good tool to protect your culture from something that is posing as creativity and fun.

[Kenny同志]

Luckily for you, you have the Great Firewall. It's not good for creativity, yet, it's a good tool to protect your culture from something that is posing as creativity and fun. 

 

 

In fact, the present 崇醜尚俗 culture stems from within the Great Firewall and is promoted far and wide by China's 無良媒體.

 

Just take a look at these:

http://news.baidu.com/ns?word=%CF%B2%B4%F3%C6%D5%B1%BC&tn=news&from=news&cl=2&rn=20&ct=1

http://news.baidu.com/ns?word=%8C%C5%BDz&tn=news&from=news&cl=2&rn=20&ct=1

http://news.baidu.com/ns?word=%B6%BA%B1%C8&tn=news&from=news&cl=2&rn=20&ct=1

http://news.baidu.com/ns?ct=1&rn=20&ie=utf-8&bs=%E4%BA%8C%E6%AF%94&rsv_bp=1&sr=0&cl=2&f=3&prevct=no&tn=news&word=%E4%BA%8C%E9%80%BC&rsv_sug3=7&rsv_sug4=383&rsv_sug1=1&rsv_sug2=0&rsp=0&inputT=1858

 

The first search word is a slang word that is as ridiculous as 十動然拒.

 

The second search word means some people, including both young men and women, who consider themselves penis slices, or according to some, some sort of hair that grows on 屌.

 

The last two words allude to a female sexual organ.

 

These words are everywhere. They are used in national newspapers, adverts, and on TV and young people use them every day as if these words were the best and coolest. I for one really cannot imagine such things could happen in the west, not even in a tabloid in the UK.

[Kenny同志]

今日中國之大陸，傳統蕩然，國民不懂尊重自己，也不懂尊重他人，以粗鄙為先進，以美雅為陳腐，以西為是，以中為非，以西為優，以中為劣，前景堪憂。

 

The Chinese cultural tradition has been uprooted during the communist rule. Today a great many mainlanders have no idea about what respect and self-respect are. It is their belief that the coarse disgusting language they use is superior to refined Chinese.

[Angelina]

Terrible.

 

怎么办？

 

 

In fact, the present 崇醜尚俗 culture stems from within the Great Firewall and is promoted far and wide by China's 無良媒體.

 

Doesn't the Firewall shield you from some of them? If there was not Firewall, this crazy language would have no limits, at least your institutions are protected. Imagine what it will be like if the people who speak this language used it to overthrow your system? It is happening around the world. 

[Angelina]

以西為優，以中為劣

 

I don't agree. 

[Kenny同志]

Terrible.

 

怎么办？

 

Unless the government steps in, I don’t think we can stop this trend.  We cannot rely on journalists; they are among those culprits who try to 嘩眾取寵 by spreading such terrible expressions. We cannot rely on professional writers either because most of us do not read books.

 

Doesn't the Firewall shield you from some of them? If there was not Firewall, this crazy language would have no limits, at least your institutions are protected. Imagine what it will be like if the people who speak this language used it to overthrow your system? It is happening around the world. 

 

I am not sure I understand what you mean. The firewall is primarily designed to prevent Chinese people from accessing a number of certain foreign websites but people from outside of the mainland can still view almost all Chinese websites, including those that are loaded with such expressions.

 

Many of our institutions have been wiped out over the past century – whether they are good or bad is beside the point here. If people who speak this newish language were going to overthrow our remaining institutions, or in your words, our system, the firewall could do nothing about it because those people are almost all Chinese who live in this country. 

[Demonic_Duck]

Well, this thread has drifted pretty far from its original purpose...

 

@Kenny, I don't really understand where you're coming from. I don't think there are many people who genuinely believe that the "new-style chengyu" are superior to actual chengyu. I also don't think that modern slang will replace literary tradition. Literary tradition will continue to evolve, for sure, but that's a much more gradual process, and most "slang" words will fall by the wayside.

 

Your concerns are similar to concerns English speakers have that text speak or internet language will ruin the English language. It hasn't happened yet.

[Kenny同志]

 I don't think there are many people who genuinely believe that the "new-style chengyu" are superior to actual chengyu. 

 

 

Well, I was talking about that sort of language in general; those four-character slang words are just part of it.

 

 

Your concerns are similar to concerns English speakers have that text speak or internet language will ruin the English language. It hasn't happened yet.

 

 

It's happening in Chinese, as can be seen on the webpages in #30.

[Demonic_Duck]

People enjoy it because they see it as fun and amusing. I'd say that's pretty much all there is to it. Sure, it's not high art, but it has no pretensions of being high art.

 

I also don't think you can claim the propaganda department is somehow supportive of this, either, especially when they publish directives aimed at expunging "vulgar" language or chengyu-based puns from social media, advertising etc.

[Angelina]

I am not sure I understand what you mean. The firewall is primarily designed to prevent Chinese people from accessing a number of certain foreign websites but people from outside of the mainland can still view almost all Chinese websites, including those that are loaded with such expressions.

 

Many of our institutions have been wiped out over the past century – whether they are good or bad is beside the point here. If people who speak this newish language were going to overthrow our remaining institutions, or in your words, our system, the firewall could do nothing about it because those people are almost all Chinese who live in this country.

 

 

The firewall can prevent most Chinese people from overthrowing their institutions. 

 

Even if there are many groups of Chinese people on the Internet, using their own slang within the group, they are not allowed to take over the country. 

Maybe some ugly language does become mainstream, but you are still safe from a large barbarian conquest and destruction. Unlike other parts of the world 

[Kenny同志]

I also don't think you can claim the propaganda department is somehow supportive of this, either, 

 

 

I didn't say that. I said it was those 無良媒體 that were spreading them. The propaganda department spreads 共產中文.

[Kenny同志]

The firewall can prevent most Chinese people from overthrowing their institutions. 

 

Even if there are many groups of Chinese people on the Internet, using their own slang within the group, they are not allowed to take over the country. 

Maybe some ugly language does become mainstream, but you are still safe from a large barbarian conquest and destruction. Unlike other parts of the world  

 

I see what you mean this time. Yes, you are correct.