New-style "chengyu"

[Demonic_Duck]

I didn't say that. I said it was those 無良媒體 that were spreading them. The propaganda department spreads 共產中文.

I'd say it's vastly preferable to 共产中文, though. The characteristics of 共产中文 are that it's inflexible, boring, needlessly wordy, largely devoid of meaning and often involving doublespeak. The characteristics of modern slang are that it's flexible, amusing, and not so much devoid of meaning as playing around with the very concept of meaning. If it involves doublespeak, it's using it in an ironic way.

[Kenny同志]

It's probably slightly better than 共產中文 but to be honest, I can't stand both either of them.

[realmayo]

Good to have a 基本共识

[skylee]

“but to be honest, I can't stand both.”

Should we use "either" instead of "both" in this sentence?

[Angelina]

Let's see.

I can't stand both of them means- there are two things A and B- I definitely can't stand A, I definitely can't stand B.

I can't stand either of them means- there are two things A and B- if forced to choose between them I would not choose A, I would not choose B.

In this case "either" is better than "both". One poster was suggesting that A is a bit better then B. The other poster said he won't choose A, he won't choose B even if forced to make a choice.

"Both" is not a mistake. However, "either" is a better choice because it fits the discourse better.

[Kenny同志]

Thanks for the explanation, Angelina. : )

[realmayo]

Both is wrong. Should be: I can't stand either of them.

[Kenny同志]

I think it should be both are wrong, no?

[realmayo]

Hehe, is that a joke? If not, what I meant was: "both" is wrong.

 

"I can't stand both" means I don't like the two of them together. (But perhaps one of them on its own would be okay.)

 

I'm not sure that Angelina's explanation is correct.

[Kenny同志]

haha, I got it. Thank you, mayo!

[Demonic_Duck]

It's probably slightly better than 共產中文 but to be honest, I can't stand both either of them.

 

Fair enough.

[skylee]

I agree with #47 and #49.

[陳德聰]

Meh. This discussion has repeated several times I think. There will always be people who complain about the state of language affairs. In every single era. Because there is literally always new content being added to any given language. In the same breath as 以西為是，以中為非, Kenny claims that Western places like the UK would not use such vulgar things in tabloids. Beyond being utterly false, it is just amusing.

Sometimes you just have to let people hold their stubborn and borderline masturbatory language views while the entire world changes around them.

[Kenny同志]

I will say a few things:

1)      I am just saying that this internet slangish Chinese and 共產中文are bad;

2)      If you disagree or believe that their taking over all the media is a sign of progress, I respect that;

3)      no one can blame those who insist on eating only grains, fruits and vegetables when all the other people prefer animal-based and fast food just because they are different;

4)      please do not use such words as ‘stubborn’ or ‘masturbatory’; these words are equally applicable to you.

 

 

Kenny claims that Western places like the UK would not use such vulgar things in tabloids. Beyond being utterly false, it is just amusing.

 

I did not claim; the word I used was 'imagine'. Anyway, I didn't read British tabloids often so I didn't really know. But what about the BBC?

[realmayo]

Kenny, 陳德聰 is locked in the trendy orthodoxy that gushes about language being uncontrollable. This approach fails to consider either the difference between oral and written language, or the effect of mass media on language development. 陳德聰 says you shouldn't complain about the spread of 共产中文 in China, but, complaining about it seems reasonable to me.

[Kenny同志]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, mayo. : )

[Angelina]

It is not a good idea to complain about language change, it's pointless. I do think we should be concerned when we see certain developments. 

[Demonic_Duck]

I am just saying that this internet slangish Chinese and 共產中文are bad;

Fair point. It seems you realise it's a subjective (aesthetic) judgement, which I certainly wouldn't dispute.

 

If you disagree or believe that their taking over all the media is a sign of progress, I respect that;

I don't think it's a "sign of progress", I just think it's how things are. I certainly wouldn't try to claim that languages tend to improve over time. I don't think modern English is any better or worse as a medium than Shakespeare's English or Chaucer's English; and I don't think modern Chinese is any better or worse as a medium than that in 红楼梦 or 论语. At the same time, I wouldn't try to claim that silly internet anecdotes which will be forgotten in a few years have the same value as ancient stories which have stood the test of time and are still retold today. Nevertheless, some parts of what we think of as modern popular culture may yet prove to be as timeless as the story of 塞翁失马, 守株待兔 etc., and we won't necessarily know which parts they are.

 

陳德聰 says you shouldn't complain about the spread of 共产中文 in China, but, complaining about it seems reasonable to me.

He certainly hasn't said anything of the sort in this thread, so unless you can point to where he said this elsewhere, you're just putting words in his mouth.

[陳德聰]

@Kenny同志

It's a bit bizarre that you would even mention UK tabloids if you don't have any knowledge of them... What does that lack of imagination mean to the discussion? If I had never read one I might also find it hard to imagine things about the content as well. The implication was quite clear. As for "respectable" news sources using slang, it is a matter of style and I don't think it is always crass just because the language used is not of a high enough prestige. Regardless of your taste for slang, it seems a bit silly to have such a rigid stance on language considering language is not rigid.

 

@realmayo

Intriguing. I was under the impression the language orthodoxy would be institutionalized grammar and standardization. "Trendy" is not a word I would ever associate with orthodoxy, but instead its archnemesis heresy. Descriptivism is not "trendy"... it's a bloody school of thought.

[realmayo]

He certainly hasn't said anything of the sort in this thread, so unless you can point to where he said this elsewhere, you're just putting words in his mouth.

 

Demonic_Duck, see #53, viz There will always be people who complain about the state of language affairs.... Sometimes you just have to let people hold their stubborn and borderline masturbatory language views while the entire world changes around them.

 

This to me suggests people shouldn't complain about language changing. You're saying you read it differently?