WKC Posted September 11, 2015 at 01:56 AM Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 01:56 AM Hi, I just wanted to check that I understand Middle Chinese tones. The Middle Chinese four tones in sequence are: 1st Tone - 平声, 2nd Tone - 上声, 3rd Tone - 去声, 4th Tone - 入声. Was there a 5th tone - 轻声? Many thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted September 11, 2015 at 02:50 AM Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 02:50 AM No. You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKC Posted September 11, 2015 at 03:42 AM Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 03:42 AM Many ancient Chinese texts refer to 五聲. e.g. "五聲、六律、十二管” in 禮記. What would 五聲 relate to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted September 11, 2015 at 04:00 AM Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 04:00 AM Music. 5 tones/notes, or the pentatonic scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKC Posted September 11, 2015 at 04:06 AM Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 04:06 AM I understood the pentatonic scale to be五音. I’m surprised that they would use both 五音 and 五聲 to refer to the pentatonic scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted September 11, 2015 at 04:55 AM Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 04:55 AM Who used both words to refer to the pentatonic scale? "The Chinese?" Chinese is a vast language with a very long history and billions of users over the course of that history. Words change meanings over time, as in any language, multiple words are used to refer to the same concept, as in any language, and different people use the language in different ways, as in any language. In the same way, the Western chromatic scale can be referred to as "chromatic," "12-tone," "dodecaphonic," etc. Much more surprising would be if there were one and only one way to refer to the pentatonic scale in the history of the Chinese language. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiaoXi Posted September 12, 2015 at 02:17 PM Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 at 02:17 PM The 'middle' tones? What exactly are you referring to? Don't get this thread at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmayo Posted September 12, 2015 at 03:07 PM Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 at 03:07 PM Middle Chinese, not Middle Tones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Chinese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKC Posted September 13, 2015 at 12:20 AM Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 at 12:20 AM I find it interesting that pre-Han texts mention 五聲, but 四聲 is mention only in post-Han texts. I remain unconvinced that 五聲 relates to the pentatonic scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted September 13, 2015 at 03:03 AM Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 at 03:03 AM You're getting confused. The 禮記, a Zhou (1046-256 BC) text, couldn't possibly be referring to Middle Chinese (which starts around 601 AD) tones/phonology. Tones didn't even come about in the Chinese language until after the Han dynasty. Have you even read the passage you're referring to? "五聲、六律、十二管，還相為宮也" is talking about music. 律 and 管 refer to bamboo pipe instruments, and 宮 is the name of the first note of the pentatonic scale. So what could it be referring to other than musical tones? You don't have to believe me on that (the info is easy enough to find), but you'll have a hard time making a case to the contrary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKC Posted September 13, 2015 at 12:55 PM Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 at 12:55 PM Yes. Confusion abounds . http://www.pinyin.info/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted September 13, 2015 at 04:53 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 at 04:53 PM Just one dude AFAIK. OK you're not the only one. More often than not around here (Utah Chinese teachers), when people say 四聲 they're talking about Mandarin tones. Even in some textbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted September 14, 2015 at 12:35 AM Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 at 12:35 AM Yes. Confusion abounds . http://www.pinyin.info/ So do cryptic posts, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKC Posted September 14, 2015 at 12:57 AM Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 at 12:57 AM It is just not possible to explain in one post or ten. You either understand or you do not. Lu Xun skirts the topic in menwai wentan and other writings such as kuángrén rìjì. Some people will understand if I were to say, "wo de nainai jiao wo du fenghuang". Yue ri? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted September 14, 2015 at 02:06 AM Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 at 02:06 AM I'm not going to waste my time trying to decipher your posts if you're not willing to communicate clearly. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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