realmayo Posted November 16, 2015 at 05:59 PM Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 at 05:59 PM I really must insist that man is always man; he is not just a vague cipher in the lumpenproletariat, but always and forever a unique INDIVIDUAL. I'd suggest this risks reading the past as if it was written in the present, and reading the terrain of elsewhere as if it was actually your own neighbourhood. The focus on the individual is largely a western thing, and particularly a US one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmayo Posted November 16, 2015 at 06:07 PM Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 at 06:07 PM Of course, it changed a lot, mostly rhyme patterns. A quick google suggests foreign influence was limited to adapting ci poems to foreign tunes. Do you have any more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reitia Posted November 17, 2015 at 05:52 PM Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 at 05:52 PM Hello Angelina, Chinese rhyme patterns may have changed, but are you sure that this was due to foreign influences? From what origin? It is true that many Sogdian SONG melodies and modes were introduced into China at this time. But I am not so convinced that this melodic innovation would have affected the poetry. As for CLASSICAL Hellenic culture, yes, certain elements of this had filtered into China even before Han times. But by the time of the Tang Dynasty, Hellenic culture had long since been transformed into Byzantine (via east Roman culture ), and this was a far cry from classical civilization. Whatever Byzantine influence there was on Tang literature must have been minimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reitia Posted November 17, 2015 at 06:01 PM Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 at 06:01 PM I do not agree with you at all on this subject, due to the reasons expressed in my latest posts. I am Italian, an heir to the Humanists. My viewpoint on the essence of humanity is the Universalist one: man is always man, whether he is born in 5th century Athens, 21st century London or Babylonia, 1700 B.C. Man's actions and decisions are certainly affected by his particular environment; but his psyche, being what distinguishes him from all other living creatures and gives him a special nature, essentially follows universal norms. You may deny the validity of this viewpoint, but I firmly adhere to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reitia Posted November 17, 2015 at 06:09 PM Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 at 06:09 PM Hello again realmayo, Sorry I did not address you personally in the above post, but that was also written to you. As I stated previously, I do not see much foreign influence of any kind in Tang literature. Hindu folk tales may have inspired Chinese authors to write stories about animals and the supernatural; but that was about all. Buddhist, Gnostic and Manichaean works belong to the realm of religion, not literature for literature's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmayo Posted November 17, 2015 at 09:38 PM Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 at 09:38 PM Hi reitia, I guess then I must be an heir to the empiricists I'd suggest a famous book called Orality and Literacy which talks about the difference in thinking between people who can read and people who can't read. That book convinces me that how man relates to the world is not uniform across time/space/circumstance, and if the way man relates to the world varies, so too will his choices of literary formats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelina Posted November 18, 2015 at 06:13 AM Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 at 06:13 AM Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reitia Posted November 18, 2015 at 07:27 AM Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 at 07:27 AM Dear Angelina, Sorry, but I'm not able to download the attachments from my PC...What are they about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelina Posted November 18, 2015 at 08:03 AM Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 at 08:03 AM It is possible that the changes happened because of outside influence, especially when we compare this changes to poetic traditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelina Posted November 18, 2015 at 08:05 AM Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 at 08:05 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmayo Posted November 18, 2015 at 09:09 AM Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 at 09:09 AM That should clear things up for you reitia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted November 18, 2015 at 05:30 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 at 05:30 PM Not sure what to make of the stuff you've posted, Angelina. Quite apart from being in Chinese and not very helpful to reitia, they also don't seem to be particularly relevant to the discussion. I expected to read something backing up your claim of foreign influence on Tang literature, not a very elementary description of categories of Tang poetry. Reitia, if you're curious about what Angelina posted, the English language wikipedia entries on Tang poetry and those on shi and other forms more than cover it. On Arthur Waley, no translation will ever be perfect, but I think his translations are often very readable and try to communicate the feeling of a work in a way that's really hard to do. Don't dismiss him out of hand. As for your idea of a universal psyche, I don't think this is the place to debate it, but if you think everyone has an essential sameness when it comes to the imagination, then what's the point of reading things from a different time and place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reitia Posted November 19, 2015 at 04:56 PM Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 at 04:56 PM Dear realmayo, I'm still as much in the dark as before...I can't read Chinese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reitia Posted November 19, 2015 at 05:01 PM Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 at 05:01 PM Dear mouse, I still must maintain that, essentially, foreign influence on Tang literature was quite minimal and superficial. Humans do not have an essential sameness when it comes to the imagination...we would all be hopelessly boring robots in that case...but, rather, in our concept of PERSONALITY, INDIVIDUALITY. Each writer is a unique being, recognizing himself/herself as such, even though individual expression can be and is extremely varied. This is my essential point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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