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Fuller's ILC Chapters 13 (說苑) and 14 (莊子)

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somethingfunny

I was a little late posting chapters 11 and 12 so I'm going to throw up 13 and 14 now (I'll leave it at least a week before 15 and 16).  Also, this makes sense as both 13 and 14 have been covered before here and here, respectively.  Like I've mentioned before, I'm hoping Fuller's questions can give us greater insight into texts already covered in Rouzer.  Enjoy.

 

13 趙簡子舉兵而攻齊 (說苑)

 

趙簡子舉兵而攻齊,令軍中有敢谏者罪至死,被甲士,名曰公盧,望見簡子大笑;簡子曰:“子何笑?”對曰:“臣有夙笑。”簡子曰:“有以解之則可,無以解之則死。”對曰:“當桑之時,臣鄰家夫與妻俱之田,見桑中女,因往追之,不能得,還反,其妻怒而去之,臣笑其曠也。”簡子曰:“今吾伐國失國,是吾曠也。”于是罷師而歸。 

 

Questions

  1. How does this story fulfil the generic features of a "persuasion"?
  2. How do we know that 笑 is coordinate with 望 and 見 in 望見簡子大笑?  Why is it not the object of 見?
  3. Is 之 the locative or direct object of 去? Discuss the two possibilities and the difference in meaning.
  4. Zhao realizes how Gonglu's story applies to his situation.  Paraphrase his comment and explain the comparison.

 

Review

  1. Explain the coordination of 望見.  How does it differ from the modern usage?
  2. Explain the use of 因 when it appears by itself, that is, without an object.
  3. Are the two phrases 伐國失國 coordinate or topic comment?  Explain.

 

14 鵷鶵 (莊子)

 

惠子相梁。莊子往見之。或謂惠子曰,莊子來欲代子相。於是惠子恐。搜於國中三日三夜。莊子往見之,曰,南方有鳥,其名為鵷鶵,子知之乎。夫鵷鶵發於南海,而飛於北海,非梧桐不止,非練實不食,成玄英曰練實竹實也。武延緒曰,練楝之借字。非醴泉不飲。於是鴟得腐鼠,鵷鶵過之,仰而視之曰嚇。今子欲以子之梁國而嚇我邪。姚鼐曰,記此語者,莊徒之陋。

 

Questions

  1. Does 莊子往見之 in the first line describe Zhuangzi meeting Huizi?  The phrase is repeated in the second line.  Does it mean the same thing?  Explain.
  2. The phrase 於是 is used twice in the story.  Does it mean the same thing in both cases?  Explain.
  3. Why does the owl hoot at the yuan chu?  What comparison is Zhuangzi making here?  Why might Yao Nai consider the story vulgar?

Review

  1. What does 或 mean here?  What part of speech is it?
  2. Notice that the editor does not put a full stop between 北海 and 非: what is the relationship between the two clauses?  Are they coordinate or topic-comment?  Explain.

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Dani_man
Hi there, 
I love the idea of revisiting earlier inteperations with Fuller. Some of his questions are intriguing. It's good to shut down the classical chinese automatic pilot mode from time to time :)
 
First text:
 
Questions
1. I'm not faimiliar with Fuller's generic features, but the persuasion here appears by the good-old way of providing an analogy taken from a simple daily life situation, that is then applied to the current story and promotes transformation (in thought, or action, or both) on the side of the listener/ruler. 
2. There is no change of subject/object here, so I'd automatically assume that they coordinate with each other. I would also expect a "之" had it been the laugh of the Zhao zi, and not his own (so: 見簡子大笑)
3. I'd go for a direct object, taking the husband as an object (hence the woman left her husband). Had it been locative, it would have meant (for me) in this context that she left the mulberry field. That wouldn't suit the story well as the woman actually left the bloke for good.
4. Zhao means that attacking Qi will consume so much of his power that he might lose his own state; just as running after the other woman made the husband to lose his wife. What I like in this story is the use of "歸" - to go back home as well as to marry. 
 
Review
1. 望 modifies 見, "looked at him from afar". In modern usage, 望 would be used not as a modifier, but as a verb by itself, I think.
2. Without an object it is a sort of a time marker ("then", "therefore"), with an object means "using", or "depending on" an object (因Object而do something)
3. I'd go for a topic comment, as these are not actions taken after each other, but a beginning of a statement for a comment about the repercussions of attacking another state. 
 
 
Second text: 
 

Questions

  1. First instance indicates that Zhuangzi left to Liang to meet him. Second instance indicates that he actually went to meet him. 
  2. First time it can be translates as "as a result". Second time, "consequently" seems a better choice, but I am not sure if this is a general statement or one incident (so everytime the owls see the bird flying in the sky above they hoot?)
  3. The owl hoots in order to ward off the bird, fearing that the bird will snatch it. Zhuangzi humilates Huizi by comparing his position in Liang to having a rotten rat, insinuating that he has no interest in such a lowly occupation. This arrogant stance probably brought Yao Nai to consider it as vulgar. 

Review

 

  1. 或 - "Some people". Seems to be the subject of the sentence. 
  2. Perhaps the point of the editor is to highlight that the bird stops to rest, eat or drink according to its own strict preference during the flight from south to north, rather than when being idle. 
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somethingfunny

Dani_man, great stuff, thanks for your post.  I'm looking at the first text here and I generally agree with what you've got in response to Fuller's questions.  I'll address my answers in response to yours:

 

13Q1:  I'm also not sure about the general features of a persuasion.  Are we to assume that this story is being told by someone in order to persuade someone of doing (or not doing) something else?  In which case, is the persuasion the whole story, or just the bit told by the laughing soldier?

 

13Q2:  It also wouldn't make a lot of sense in the story if it was Zhao Jianzi laughing.  Just as the use of 之 would indicate an object relationship, would the use of 而 make the coordinate relationship clearer?  望見簡子大笑

 

13Q3:  I agree, we are talking about loss and loneliness, so the woman leaving her husband (as opposed to the field) make a much better analogy to Zhao Jianzi's situation.

 

13Q4:  I'm not 100% sure on this bit, is he saying "Now, if I attack and lose, this will be my loneliness"?  And as a result, he decides not to attack and disbands the army?

 

13R1:  See Dani_man's answer.

 

13R2:  See Dani_man's answer.

 

13R3:  This I'm not sure about, couldn't it be coordinate in the sense of "To attack and then to lose"?  Do the two 国's here refer to different states?  Is he saying "To attack someone else's state and then to lose my own state"? Could it be topic-comment is this was the case?

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Dani_man
13Q1:  I'm also not sure about the general features of a persuasion.  Are we to assume that this story is being told by someone in order to persuade someone of doing (or not doing) something else?  In which case, is the persuasion the whole story, or just the bit told by the laughing soldier?

 

 

These stories, or better say "parables",  were probably used by advisors during the premodern period in China, and after. We cannot know for sure if these parables actually took place (so, a soldier laughing at Zhaozi), but we can assume that these stories were invoked by political advisors who had to walk on eggshells when advising their masters on a certain subject, such as, not going to a war, or in written treatises. There is much about warring states literature, persuasion and rhetoric in the academic literature, if you wish to dig deeper. 

 

13Q2:  It also wouldn't make a lot of sense in the story if it was Zhao Jianzi laughing.  Just as the use of 之 would indicate an object relationship, would the use of 而 make the coordinate relationship clearer?  望見簡子大笑

 

 

Spot on! Yes that would definitely suggest that he laughed himself. 

 

13Q4:  I'm not 100% sure on this bit, is he saying "Now, if I attack and lose, this will be my loneliness"?  And as a result, he decides not to attack and disbands the army?

13R3:  This I'm not sure about, couldn't it be coordinate in the sense of "To attack and then to lose"?  Do the two 国's here refer to different states?  Is he saying "To attack someone else's state and then to lose my own state"? Could it be topic-comment is this was the case?

 

 

1. "Now that I attack one state I lose another one - that will be my  lonliness". His loneliness means here that he will rule no country if he decides to attack. A bit dramatic, but that's how he applies the parable to himself.

 

2. In second reading it could be that they coordinate. But since it is a general statement rather than two actions that follow each other (as he would not lose his state right after the battle is over because of a hard battle; rather, it is his belligerent nature that will cause him to lose support in his own state.) I think it is a statement that fits in a topic comment structure. 

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somethingfunny

So is it supposed to be a pun?  The husband is 旷 (lonely) because his wife left him and Zhao Jianzi is 旷 (negligent of duty) because he unnecessarily attacked another state and lost his own state in the process. 

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lips

Actually 旷 can be interpreted two ways in this passage.  旷 can mean "without a wife" for a man.  This applies nicely to the first instance in this passage.  In this case, the second 旷 is used to signify the similar status of a king without a state.

 

旷 can also mean negligent.  If this meaning is taken, then both 旷 mean the same - the husband and Zhao Jianzi both neglected their duties.

 

You raised a very interesting third posibility - the first 旷 means without a wife, or lonely, and the second 旷 is a play on the other meaning (negligent) of the word.  Very astute and insightful!

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Dani_man

I agree that different meaning can be applied, and perhaps it was deliberately chosen by the author to add richness and depth. 

 

Same goes for 歸 - this means to return, as well to marry - the ideal scenario in which the husband and his wife are together, and the ruler is back to his own state. Family harmony is equated with ruler-citizens harmony. So confucian, isn't it? ;)

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somethingfunny

Well, at the very least I think I can firmly say going through this again (after a first time with Rouzer) has been a very worthwhile experience.  Thanks for the input lips and Dani_man, keep it coming!

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somethingfunny

Here are my answers for Lesson 14 (again, partially in response to Dani_man's answers):

 

14Q1:  Does this mean that in the first occurrence 之 refers to 梁 and in the second occurrence it refers to 惠子?

 

14Q2:  I agree, the first is "as a result" but the second seems to be more along the lines of "at this" or something similar.  As in, "As the owl was catching the rotting rat, the bird flew overhead and he raised his head and hooted".

 

14Q3:  The hoot is to warn the bird/Zhuangzi off snatching the rotting rat/梁国?  This seems like an insult to both Huizi and 梁国.  Zhuangzi does seem to be rather full of it.  I'm not sure I'd describe the story as "vulgar" and feel that Yao Nai's comments are more along the lines of a person who memorises this story will be vulgar, because the story itself is shameful/arrogant.

 

14R1:  See Dani_man

 

14R2:  I agree, perhaps rather than saying "he will only stop at the best places" its saying "if it isn't the best place he won't stop", as in the bird would take the whole journey without rest.  Adding to the arrogance of the bird/Zhuangzi.

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Dani_man
14Q1:  Does this mean that in the first occurrence 之 refers to 梁 and in the second occurrence it refers to 惠子?

 

I think that in both cases, it relates to 惠子

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