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Fuller's ILC Chapters 21 (莊子) and 22 (史記)


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Yes!  Just what you've been waiting for!


There's only one more of these to go after this one, so get your fill while you still can!


21 髑髏 (莊子)






  1. What is the relationship between and 遺父母妻子之醜?
  2. What part of speech is as it is used in the text?
  3. Is 子之談者 the subject as well as the topic of 似辯士?  Explain.
  4. What is the function of in死則無此矣?
  5. What is the function of the in雖南面王樂不能過也?




  1. Is a coverb in 因而問之?  What does it mean?  What about in莊子曰然?
  2. If 使 is a pivot verb in吾使司命復生子形, what is the main verb?


22 漢高祖 (史記)






  1. In高祖以亭長為縣送徒酈山, if is read wei4, what is the function of ?  What type of object is 酈山?
  2. How is used in 自度?
  3. In what tone should one read in 何為見殺?
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Thanks for posting again! Any plans after Fuller? :)


Here are my notes for the first:


22Q1:遺父母妻子之醜 is the object  - ashamed of the disgrace of abandoning your parents and wife.
22Q2: 枕 could be used as a verb, he "pillowed" it. 
22Q3: "Your words resemble those gifted speakers." - so yes I'd say it's the subject and the topic. 
22Q4: It clarifies the relationship, so it can be read like "IF you are dead, then it's not like this"
22Q5: Not sure about this one! Could be that it just marks the end of the statement?
22R1: I can't see why this is a coverb, which will require a "因object而do something" construction. I think "thereupon" can work here. 
然 - I think it can means "correct" (agreeing with the fact that his words fits only the living world) or "do so" (agreeing to hear more)
22R2: 復生 is the verb - to return to life
The second:
23Q1 以 is a coverb, means that as a Ting chief he undertook a mission on behalf of the country. 酈山 is indirect object. 
23Q2 As an adverb perhaps, calcuated with himself about the situation. 
23Q3 - 為 should be second tone (何為)
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Dani_man, hello again.  Don't forget to go back and look at last week's post if you haven't already.


I agree mostly with your answers for Lesson 21, so I'll take this opportunity to go over a few things I'm not 100% clear on:


夫子貪生失理,而為此乎?"Covet life and failed in your reasoning."  What's he saying here?  He was over-indulgent in life?  Or he was careless.


將子之春秋故及此乎?"Because of the excesses of Spring and Autumn?"  Not sure what this one is about.


從然以天地為春秋,雖南面王樂,不能過也。"Everything is always Spring and Autumn, and although there are joys in the south, they cannot be reached."  Also not sure about this one, or what 春秋 means.

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For the sentences you mentioned, they are indeed tricky, I hope I can give some pointers. My suggestion is to look up these special expressions in the dictionary that can solve some of the mysteries/miseries :). www.zdic.net or MoE dictionary http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cbdic/ will usually do the trick with classical chinese. 
夫子貪生失理,而為此乎?"Covet life and failed in your reasoning."  What's he saying here?  He was over-indulgent in life?  Or he was careless.



I think you are right here. Life greediness that made him to lose his reason. 
春秋 - also means time and age. So regarding - 將子之春秋故及此乎 ,  The sentence means something like: Or is it your age that brought you to this" - so because of old age. 
南面 - rulers at the time of Zhuangzi were positioned in court in such way that there were facing south, so this expression is a figurative use of that tradition. 
從然以天地為春秋,雖南面王樂,不能過也。" - [having] unrestricted time like of heaven and earth, even the joy of a ruler cannot surpass [the joy of being dead]. 
I hope I'll be able to review past lessons, but not sure I'll make it before the next chapters, my limited 春秋 does not always allow me to do so :)
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Thanks Dani_man, I've got a few questions about the second text:


Fuller implies that the 徒 are convicts sentenced to labour, is this correct?  It doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the story.




He's saying "You all leave (too), I am also going to leave this place!"


If that's the case, what does 从 do here?  It doesn't really seem to be implying it's usual meaning of "with".  The following line then seems to say that the number of people willing to follow him numbered more than 10 - how is this consistent with the previous line?


I found this one a little tricky but worked most of it out in the end.  The translation here seems to include additional information from other sources, things like "刘邦自己度量,即使到了骊山也会被按罪被杀。" seem to only be implied from the account given here in 史记.


I've looked around, but I haven't found a definitive distinction between wei2 and wei4 that I'm happy with.  Anyone willing to chip in on that?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes that's correct, these are convicts that were taken by Gaozu to the mountain, and they started to flee. Since he feared that by the time he arrived the mountain, he just released them all. And said himself, I'm leaving from here (從此) as well. 

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