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When working on conversation with a tutor


Flickserve

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Ermm, this might sound like a silly question but when you work with an individual tutor, how many times do you repeat a sentence? Do you ever repeat that sentence again at a later time in the lesson or on another date? I find I repeat the sentence up to three times and then the conversation moves on. Is that typical?

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If you're more generally conversing (or trying to) than studying or alluding to anything too specific or unparaphrasable, the utterances going back and forth should contain enough high-frequency vocabulary that you'll meet them again soon enough without the need for too much repeating the same example. I guess it all ultimately depends on quite what you're aiming to acquire in the course of talking. Personally I prefer to try to keep study (usually by myself, and quite possibly repetitive) distinct from (later) conversation proper (though of course conversation may at times involve questions about language). I just find it useful to keep things straight like that, otherwise there is a risk that the "conversation" simply becomes primarily about language study - about the means rather than the ends. Ultimately it may be better to leave matters of salience to natural processes rather than artificial ones too much, and some of the things you may have trouble remembering perhaps aren't always that important in the wider scheme of things or speech. Sorry if all this also seems silly or is misconstruing what you said LOL.

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I think that if you are working on conversation you should probably not repeat sentences as this is not how you would speak in a normal conversation. You want to try and get a flowing feel to your conversation. If you think how you might discuss and chat about something in English, you don't stop and repeat things.

 

if you feel you would like to have more practice or to be able to review things and repeat them, then ask the person who is talking with if you can record the conversation, then at a later time you can go over it and repeat things by your self.

 

When i tried TPRS it was all about repeating sentences but slightly different to get the feel of how that grammar pattern works. I found it really good. I had a few taster sessions with Eszter.  Here is the post about it from Eszter http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46693-any-experience-with-tprs/

 

if you want more repetition maybe look at TPRS.

 

 

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Yeah, I was wondering how people who do not record manage to progress.

Shelley, I did not get the bit about not repeating. Even in English I repeat myself. I thought that is quite normal.

With TPRS, have you continued?

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I think what I was trying to say is that a normal conversations flows from one subject to another and changes as it goes. If you are talking with friends about a TV show for example, you may find that you all agree with something or each of you has your own idea and expresses their opinion and so the conversation flows and grows.

 

Repeating something for emphasises or clarification is one thing but I don't say the same thing twice in a row. I might say it again, but in a different way. So it wouldn't be useful for practising a sentence or way of saying something.

 

I don't repeat myself word for word in English so I wouldn't do it in Chinese.

 

I would have loved to continue TPRS but I find it hard to be able to scheduled things regularly because of my health, nothing terrible, but sometimes I just am unable to keep appointments and things.

 

I have taken what I learnt with Eszter and applied it to my own self study by writing and speaking to myself using the TPRS method.

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Ermm, this might sound like a silly question but when you work with an individual tutor, how many times do you repeat a sentence?

 

Not a silly question at all, Flickserve. I want my tutor to make me repeat a sentence pattern until I get it right without a lot of hesitation or effort. And I use face to face tutoring a lot.

 

Do you ever repeat that sentence again at a later time in the lesson or on another date?

 

Absolutely yes. This is essential to "cement" the new pattern. Spaced recall of all new material is always extremely helpful. (Just like with Anki.)

 

I find I repeat the sentence up to three times and then the conversation moves on. Is that typical?

 

No magic number for me. Just until I master the material. Some days I am slow, and some days I am fast.

 

I would much rather have a tutor who can teach me 5 or 6 new things well in an hour than one who just rapidly introduces me to 15 or 20 new things while going so fast that none of it sticks. The latter just produces frustration.

 

A tutoring session is not a conversation between friends. It is language instruction; and I insist that it be structured to meet my learning needs and my learning pace. I am, after all, the one paying the bill.

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I have realised that perhaps I have take the the topic title too literally. Using the word "conversation" gave me the impression of an actual conversation in the truest sense of the word.

 

Please take my earlier posts with this in mind.

 

From what you say and the other replies I think you mean just practising talking.

 

In this case repetition is probably unavoidable and recommended to really understand the grammar and structure.

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I've only worked with a tutor online myself but she always makes me repeat sentences until i am able to say them without having to think about what i'm saying too much. Then after she's already moved on to another topic, she'll suddenly spring a question from an earlier topic on me. It really catches me off guard sometimes but that's what i like about her teaching style. Makes me actually have to absorb the information rather than just regurgitate it on the spot. 

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  • 7 months later...

One of my problems working with teachers is my irregular schedule. For the past year, I have been trying a variety of teachers on and off through the italki platform. Although all are nice and enthusiastic, I still have a problem of not enough repetition of sentences because of the irregular schedule. To put it succinctly, progress is understandably slow. Recognising my limitations, about two months ago, I dropped taking lessons and learnt how to use workaudio book, subs2srs and Anki.

I have quite enjoyed creating Anki cards using workaudio book and subs2srs. It came as a bit of a surprise to discover this. I have created a lot of cards these last few weeks.

Today, I recorded an italki lesson - one of those instant tutoring lessons. First time in a couple of months. Listening comprehension is better (not 100%), speech is more fluent. The recording is processed as follows:

I select out the teacher's speech and explanations using audio software. Audacity should be OK for this (I have Audition). The file (minus irrelevant bits like me talking) goes back to the teacher to write out the exactly what has been said word for word.

There are roughly two categories of speech I am interested in:

A) speech which I understand but my pronunciation or grammar is a bit off. This goes in a 'I shall repeat and drill better fluency and tones " deck.

B) "words which I don't know" sentences and their explanations. This is for a deck to learn vocabulary.

I use workaudio book to segment the audio and match the subtitles. That really helps me listen repeatedly.

The audio and srt files are then processed through subs2srs to create Anki cards. So, I don't really need another lesson to listen to the sentences again and using Anki, subsequently filter out the sentences I start to get a hang of.

Creating Anki audio cards has helped my listening and speech a lot. Besides the odd lesson here and there,I have a few big card creating projects to get through where subtitles are available.

1) CCTV series "Growing up with Chinese"

2) CCTV series "快乐汉语”

3) 8000 sentences with transcript and audio (Someone from China sent this to me. I recognise some of the sentences from a YouTube video of 3000 Chinese sentences. The YouTube video has teacher whose voice is too high pitched for my liking).

4) convert my 8000 sentences book (Taiwan publication) into Anki cards.

5) convert a couple of TV dramas if the Chinese subtitles can be obtained.

That should keep me out of trouble for a few years.

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  • 1 month later...

@Flickserve 

 

I've been using a technique similar to yours over the past month. How long does it usually take you to break up an online lesson into flashcards? I find it's extremely slow and I'm not sure whether I should consider the time spent transcribing and re-listening as wasted. 

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@Cliveface96,

It does take quite a while. I am continually experimenting with some refinements.

The first step is processing the MP3 of the lesson. I only record the teachers voice. This saves time as I can identify the times of the teacher's voice far more quickly when the MP3 is loaded up into workaudio book. If you want to shorten the MP3 duration, then use the automated function in audacity to delete the silent parts first before workaudio book.

Using excel, I prepare a column of numbers from 1 to 60. This Is then put into workaudio book as text.

Each relevant sentence of the teacher's voice is identified and 'subtitled' as a number. I may get between 30 to 60 sentences. I am listening three or four times to the sentence to mark the times. If I just identified sentences that I had unknown vocabulary, then the numbers would be a lot lower. However, included are sentences where the vocabulary are known but I didn't immediately understand the meaning or those where I wouldn't think to express the information with such logic. This part probably takes up an hour or more. However, I count this as useful time reviewing the sentence and listening very carefully.

The MP3 is then split up into individual sentences using subs2srs. The file names are renamed according their sentence number (using a file name changing app).

The renamed files are sent to the teacher who types out the Hanzi sentences in a list in a word doc which is sent back to me.

The original srt file from workaudio book is copied and pasted into excel. The word doc list with Hanzi is also copied into excel into the Column with the corresponding sentence numbers.

Another column to the right is setup. This one contains the English translations. I do these myself with the aid of google translate and online dictionaries. Any difficult translations need to be clarified with the teacher. This will take up some time, perhaps up to an hour.

The whole excel spreadsheet is copied and pasted back into notepad and saved as a utf format srt.

This can then be imported into Anki as your flashcards.

The next part which I have not had much time to do is to listen to those sentences in anki. I note down vocabulary which seem to fine on passive listening. I intend to send a list of the vocabulary back to the teacher and in the next lesson, their role is to recreate a conversation where it forces me to use that vocabulary. I might (not decided yet) repeat this with another teacher in order to have two different conversations with different personalities using the same vocabulary. It is an attempt to force me into using the new vocabulary actively with a more systematic method.

The main disadvantage of my previous lessons is that tutors tend to type out individual words in to Skype. Not very helpful for me unless the pinyin differs from the dictionary's definition.

All in all, it is a laborious process. Although having lessons and trying to talk is more entertaining, looking back objectively, progress was slow, disatisfactory and a lot of memory decay. I wish to be able to improve listening skills and improve fluency of words that I know. My trade off is a more limited vocabulary range but being able to actively use it better. I just visited Malaysia and had to speak some Mandarin there - I have noticed some larger improvements.

If you are going for HSK 5 or 6, then some other methods maybe better. But then again, you may have more regular time than me.

If you look up yadang's post, there is a neat additional step that uses Imron's CTA to help identify unknown vocabulary in the cards, and then add definitions. I haven't tried that yet.

Objectively, how useful is this exercise on its own? Very difficult to say. Firstly, I still haven't had the opportunity to follow on with lessons to try and turn the passive vocabulary to active vocabulary.

Secondly, I have also spent a lot of time these last few months turning simple TV program dialogue into subtitles. Naturally, this will also assist my listening skills.

Thirdly, just yesterday I partially watched a Chinese TV game show on parents helping pick prospective dating partners for their sons. Whilst I can follow the dialogue in a lesson around 50 to 80% (or what I think is 80%), that is with a person speaking slowly, repeating sentences in clear standard Mandarin. When I watched the TV show, it's fast paced, different accents and with different colloquialisms. Comprehension drops to 10% or less and I am depending on subtitles. This goes back to an earlier comment I made before in another post - it is difficult to find a tutor who speaks with a heavy accent.

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@Flickserve thanks for the reply.

 

That's interesting. So your tutor's on italki don't mind writing out the Hanzi after being sent the audio files. I have been doing the transcription myself using my own (limited) listening/what is occasionally written in Skype; this might be where the huge time sink in my iteration of your approach is lol. I might try getting them to write out the Hanzi for me ! This also sounds much more reliable. I've also been getting 200+ sentences a lesson, perhaps because the lessons are so long and also maybe because my Chinese is still so limited that I convert everything they say into a flashcard. 

 

This is such a good idea: 'The next part which I have not had much time to do is to listen to those sentences in anki. I note down vocabulary which seem to fine on passive listening. I intend to send a list of the vocabulary back to the teacher and in the next lesson, their role is to recreate a conversation where it forces me to use that vocabulary.' It reminds me of something I read on here a while ago from that guy who went to Taiwan to study for 4 months, Tamu I think. Definitely going to try out this as a way of moving vocab from the passive into the active memory, nice. 

 

It is definitely difficult to gauge progress with a certain technique. I find that I'm using quite a large range of different material/approaches so it's hard to say that one is solely responsible for progress over another. Also, I reckon I often progress so slowly that over short periods of time (a month or so) it would be quite possible to look back and think that a certain approach is sub-optimal, when in reality it could be fantastic. 

 

Anyway cheers for the tips and detailed post on your approach. I'll post back if I have any insights or refinements that I think are worth sharing.

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@cliveface96

No, the teachers do not mind writing out the sentences. There are a few things that facilitate this:

• I purposefully say to them we finish at 45 mins and the last 15mins is for their work in transcribing their speech.

• the sound files sent back to them have only their speech with the sentences I am interested in. No silent parts and none of my speech

• the files are numbered sequentially. It's easier for them

• I try to explain what I am doing with the files in Chinese (this is hard work!). When the penny clicks, they are a bit gobsmacked but definitely more motivated to help you.

Some comments on your side:

• transcribing is a good technique. However, for me, it would take up too much time. There is the additional problem of me making mistakes

• 200 sentences sounds a lot! Are you including your own sentences or doing two hour lessons?

• the first time I sent back audio files, the tutor commented she didn't realise my listening skills were so weak. She honestly thought I understood a lot more. That lesson I eventually discarded as there were too many topics which were only touched upon. Subsequent lesson was a slower pace, I understood a lot more yet there were still things I can learn.

• my preference is to try and speak on a smaller range of topics but try to push a bit deeper within each topic

• be aware of the enthusiastic tutor who wants to continually push new vocabulary. It becomes too overwhelming.

Other thoughts:

• so far, I use the community tutors because I am interested in refining listening skills and local expressions. Also, their time is cheaper for the transcription process..

• no tutor has yet refused me recording the lesson. Although I have talked to a number of tutors in the last, recording lessons is only something I have done recently (and so with only a few tutors).

• I am not interested in the number of sentences. The ones I am really interested in are those which I get the gist but not get the full meaning. I am looking to connect the dots in listening by filling in a some gaps in vocabulary or certain ways of expression.

• at some stage, I will need to go back to books and refine my grammar. Maybe that time I will return to professional tutors.

• time is my major limitation. I have to be wary of taking a lesson but not analysing it and then forgetting to do it. The lesson would then be considered wasted. Current frequency of lessons is less than once a week! But more value out of each lesson.

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  • 11 months later...
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Fancy Butterfly Chinese

I think there no fixed numbers. When teach my students, i will practice new sentences or new grammar point based on different situation.

 

usually i will prepare more practice for a new sentence to help them to remember.  But if a student can take it very fast, maybe we just repeat two or three time, or even one time.   but if the student learn very slow, i usually will repeat more, and repeat even near end the class.

 

Of course, you take one to one class, but you think 3-times  repeat is not enough, you can let your teacher know. 

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