Tulee Posted February 11, 2017 at 01:23 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 at 01:23 PM Hi guys, I have come across the structure 在未 。。。之前 a number of times, and i always have a hard time grasping the concept since i do not understand the reason for 未 in the sentence at all. E.g: 在未判罪之前假定无罪 Since it is basically saying before being found guilty (a person) is assumed innocent. Any feed back would be much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted February 11, 2017 at 02:14 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 at 02:14 PM Um I don't know. Maybe it will make more sense If you rephrase it as "presumed innocent until proven guilty"? 'Until' has a negative prefix in it right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Tsui44 Posted February 12, 2017 at 12:03 AM Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 at 12:03 AM I'd say it's a wrong sentence. Maybe there are many people use it,but you'd better don't. You can use: 未…时 …之前 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lips Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:03 AM Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:03 AM There's nothing wrong with it. It's commonly used like the double negative in English. (ain't goin' nowhere) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkpanda Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:06 PM Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:06 PM 在判罪之前 在未判罪之前 both correct they mean the same thing just like the yanks say "i dunno nothing..." LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkpanda Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:10 PM Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:10 PM another example ： 中国乒乓球谁也赢不了 中国足球谁也赢不了 both correct LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny同志 Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:48 PM Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 at 02:48 PM Quote E.g: 在未判罪之前假定无罪 This is a common mistake. You either say 在未判罪時 or 在判罪之前. 在……之前 is often logically wrong. In this case, it is perfectly right to say that a suspect should be assumed to be innocent before/until he is convicted. If you insert 'not' between 'he is' and 'convicted', I don't see how it continues to make sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lips Posted February 13, 2017 at 02:26 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 02:26 AM For this particular sentence, if used in a legal/official document, yes, remove the double negative, but in other situations, it is perfectly normal. It is logically wrong, but languages are not always logical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted February 13, 2017 at 02:44 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 02:44 AM I think it's good in all circumstances. This article is pretty formal, you can find many instances of it: http://www.iolaw.org.cn/showarticle.asp?id=190 And in 联合国《公民权利和政治权利国际公约》http://www.un.org/chinese/hr/issue/ccpr.htm 第三部分、第十四条 二、凡受刑事控告者，在未依法证实有罪之前，应有权被视为无罪。 在……之前 just doesn't carry the same authority and the sense of inhibition, because it implies ... will happen. 在我没来之前，谁也不许动。<=== This implies everybody must wait, FOREVER if necessary, for me. Change it to 在我来之前，谁也不许动。 It will lose that meaning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny同志 Posted February 13, 2017 at 04:13 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 04:13 AM Just because it is a common mistake does not mean it should be accepted as correct--even if you cite what seems to be authoritative materials. Anyway, it is hugely confusing. I can name a similar common mistake and cite seemingly trustworthy sources. But again, that does not justify that mistake. Example：若/如果……時 Quote 請民眾勿以身試法，若發現有不肖人士企圖加價出售車票時，請立刻撥打檢舉專線：0800-765-888。 http://railway.hinet.net/ 交通部台灣鐵路管理局 In this case, 時 should be removed. I have seen this collocation even in medical textbooks but that does not make it correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted February 13, 2017 at 05:56 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 05:56 AM Just because you said it's a mistake, doesn't make it a mistake. Language is build on consensus and usage. I agree 时 should be removed from the sentence your quoted. That doesn't mean I must agree 未 should be removed from 在未判罪之前. The linguistic justification I've already stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Tsui44 Posted February 13, 2017 at 06:18 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 06:18 AM 2 hours ago, Kenny同志 said: Just because it is a common mistake does not mean it should be accepted as correct--even if you cite what seems to be authoritative materials. Anyway, it is hugely confusing. 在未……之前 is obviously wrong but not to be said to be a special use or fixed structure anywhere. It's not like "差点没吓死我", "好不快活", which are being generally accepted. It's more like "凯旋而归" is wrong but widely used. Those sentences have a common label called "重复/赘余". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted February 13, 2017 at 06:24 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 06:24 AM Does it make it more correct if I say XXX is obviously correct? OK, 在未……之前 is obviously correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Tsui44 Posted February 13, 2017 at 06:39 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 06:39 AM If you say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny同志 Posted February 13, 2017 at 08:42 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 08:42 AM Quote Language is build on consensus and usage. This is true. And I agree with you that just because I say it is a mistake does not mean it is really one. The problem is that we are not in agreement about all this. That is to say, while many people have no problem with 在未……之前, I am sure there are a significant number of people who do not accept it. I will stop here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lips Posted February 13, 2017 at 09:05 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 09:05 AM Must be encouraging to the Chinese learners when the natives are arguing about a common usage pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted February 13, 2017 at 09:34 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 09:34 AM 22 minutes ago, lips said: Must be encouraging to the Chinese learners when the natives are arguing about a common usage pattern. You smirking laowai! English has its own problems. Hopefully? Momentarily? Literally? Off of? Sort it out please, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lips Posted February 13, 2017 at 10:04 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 10:04 AM believe you me, you ain't see nutting yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted February 13, 2017 at 10:07 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 10:07 AM There's a vanishing small number of instances of 在未判罪之前 in the wild. It's probably not worth worrying about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Posted February 13, 2017 at 10:34 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 at 10:34 AM Even if it's incorrect and shouldn't be used, it's useful for a learner to know what it means, because it's common enough that one will come across it. Just like 'I could care less': it's wrong, but you need to understand it means the same as 'couldn't care less'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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