Tones over Characters

[roddy]

This is why the only change I will countenance to current romanisation is bringing the tone out of the diacritics and into the 'base' spelling, as Gwoyeu Romatzyh does, but in a less ridiculous manner. It would hopefully reduce the frequency of people (such as myself, back in the day) saying things like "Oh yeah, I know 2,000 words. Just not the tones."*

 

Would be interesting to know if speakers of languages where diacritics are common and important do better at remembering tones than speakers of languages (like English) where they are rare and of little consequence.

 

Bonus diacritic article. Don't say I'm not good to you.

 

*I also accept it wouldn't be worth the effort and isn't going to happen.

[Flickserve]

5 hours ago, imron said:

Because your mental model of the language is incorrect.  The tone is part of the reading, and treating it differently is incorrect and makes it more difficult to remember because you are isolating sound + tone and trying to remember them separately rather than treating them as a single inseparable unit.

 

5 hours ago, imron said:

On 16 July 2017 at 2:10 PM, js6426 said:

 

If you don't know the tone, you don't know the pronunciation. 

 

People still get the tone wrong and still communicate. What about regional variations? 

 

seriously, complaining about tone marks above the character is a nothing issue. If you are good enough, ignore it and move on.

 

Anyway, if tone marks really distract a reader, I would interpret it as the person not being secure on pronunciation. 

[Shelley]

I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining ,I was wondering what/who they were intended for.

I think my question has been answered and the reason I don't like it has been uncovered.

 

[js6426]

Yep, guess you're right imron.  I am trying to do that, I just think tone marks might help me out a little more personally.  

Hopefully I will reach a level where they are not necessary, but I am not there yet.  But dude, I am just starting out, so cut me a little slack.  It isn't nonsense.  If I gave you a character you didn't know and asked you to pronounce it you may well get the 'sound' right from knowing the radicals, but the tone wrong.  In the same way someone may be able to read 'bt' as but (1/5 chance) when asked to guess the vowel, but with a terrible accent which makes it sound all messed up.  

 

I also agree with Flickserve.  If it isn't an issue for people, why the concern?  Maybe it will help some people, others it won't.  Who cares.  Learn in whatever way is best for you.  Just don't slam others for their preferred style of learning, especially when they are just beginning.  That post came across more arrogant than anything, as if I am a clueless noob who has no idea about Chinese (which I am), and you are some fluent genius.  As an admin I would expect better.  Isn't this forum designed to help people learn Chinese rather than make them feel like fools for having little understanding of the language?  Rather than saying my comment was nonsense, perhaps it would be better to explain it (which you did, and could have ended beautifully at that point), rather than insult my intelligence.  I want to learn Chinese in the best way I can, but there's no need to make me look stupid for misunderstanding something.  

For everyone else, I think each to their own, whatever helps you the most.  If someone more learned than me shows me a better way in a humble fashion, I am down to give that a go and see how it works for me.  

[imron]

1 hour ago, Flickserve said:

People still get the tone wrong and still communicate. What about regional variations? 

And you can stll cmmncte wtht vwls.  It's just more difficult.

 

Regarding regional variations it works just like it does in English.  An Australian saying 'butter' will sound different from someone from Yorkshire saying 'butter' who will sound different from a New Yorker saying 'butter'.   Each one is a completely different sound but yet still acceptable because the speakers will generally be internally consistent with the use of that sound.  So when a regional variation has a different tone, that tone is still wrapped up a single unit as part of the sound.

 

50 minutes ago, js6426 said:

I just think tone marks might help me out a little more personally.  

And it's important to find something that works for you.  Keep in mind though that although it might give you short-term help, it encourages seeing the tone as something separate from the sound which may lead to long-term difficulties in using and remembering the tones.

 

50 minutes ago, js6426 said:

Rather than saying my comment was nonsense,

That's a misreading of what I wrote.  I didn't say your comment was nonsense.  I was talking about the idea of splitting sounds from tones, which can seem reasonable on the surface, but is actually a nonsensical thing if you think about it that just complicates learning Chinese. Nothing in what I said was meant as an attack or comment on you, and my post was mostly intended as a response to 889's question here.

[js6426]

Ahh ok, my bad, my apologies Imron, thank you for clearing that up.  I guess my difficulty is with remembering the tones, which is why I figured it might be helpful for me.  But your way does actually sound better.  I suppose just heavy learning and then hammering the words in anki, and marking it as wrong, even if the sound is correct but the tone is wrong would be a good way to go (because I want to get this language down long term to a very high level)?  Sorry for my previous post, in hindsight it was harsh and foolish.  Thank you for your help and insight, it is very much appreciated.  

[roddy]

"even if the sound is correct but the tone is wrong"

Even if? More like especially and definitely. I might be wrong but it sounds like you've fallen into the trap of thinking the tones are an add-on to the pronunciation, rather than an integral and equal part of it. It's a fantastic trap, I spent many happy years there, oblivious to the damage I was doing to everyone else's ears. If you're serious about Chinese, you'll want to get out of it early and often. If you don't know the tone, you don't know that word or that character, and it goes to the bottom of your 'review' pile. 

[js6426]

Much better phrasing.  So when I get the sound and the tone wrong, obviously mark it wrong, so both get drilled in until the point where the two become inseprable (not sure of spelling there), right?  And I guess also take all those words and rewrite them/relearn them until I have them down?

[imron]

2 minutes ago, js6426 said:

But your way does actually sound better.

It's not 'my' way per se.  It's just how native speakers see their language and so it makes sense to build a mental model of the language that matches theirs.

 

If you can do this, then it greatly simplifies the difficulty of learning tones because you don't actually need to learn the tones at all.  You just need to have internalised the differences between the tones such that hearing ā instead of ǎ or á instead of à is equivalent in your mind between hearing 'a' instead of and 'e' or 'm' instead of 'n', and once you can do that, then you can just remember the entire 'sound with tone' as a single unit, and recall that when you need it.

 

Now in case someone reading this says 'but I can't just remember sounds like that', actually you can, you just might not realise it.  For example, if I tell you to think about the song 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' I bet you can recall the sound in your head without any effort.  You've probably heard that song hundreds (if not thousands) of times and so remembering the sound of the song comes easy.

 

That's what you then need to do with the tones.  You need to get it to the point where you can distinctly recall each one in your mind as easily and clearly as you can recall the tune to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.  Once you can do that you can forget entirely about remembering the tones, because you just remember the whole sound+tone as an integral unit.

[js6426]

That makes total sense, and actually makes it sound a whole lot easier!  I guess now the following issue will be combining the individual words.  For example, for some reason I really struggle with a fourth tone followed by a first.  When I say da jia it sounds awful, and they let me know it!  Anyway, one step at a time I guess!  Thanks man!

[imron]

4 minutes ago, js6426 said:

So when I get the sound and the tone wrong, obviously mark it wrong, so both get drilled in until the point where the two become inseprable (not sure of spelling there), right?

Yes.  Very much so.

 

Imagine you were a Chinese person learning English and you were reviewing the word 害怕 and you remembered the pronunciation as 'scarred' instead of 'scared'.  It might sound close, but it's still different and you wouldn't mark it as correct.  It's the same thing with tones.  'Almost but not quite' is still incorrect.

[imron]

3 minutes ago, js6426 said:

I guess now the following issue will be combining the individual words.

Luckily, the exact same concept applies!

 

For example, when you see the word 'chocolate' you don't remember it as 'cho' + 'co' + 'late' and then try to put those sounds together when you are speaking.  Rather you just know the sound for 'chocolate' as a complete (but multi-syllable) unit.   That's the same thing you should be doing for Chinese words also.

[js6426]

Awesome.  At least now I will have that little voice everytime I try and give a 'correct' to a word that was 'almost right' haha!  Thanks again

[Shelley]

1 hour ago, js6426 said:

 So when I get the sound and the tone wrong, obviously mark it wrong

If you get the sound right and the tone wrong, its also wrong.

Don't separate the two.

When I learn new words/characters I don't ask what tone is this, I ask how does this sound and listen and repeat till it sounds the same. Based on the sound I should know what label it has been given first, second etc.

I admit freely that my tones are wrong a lot, I sort of blame this in part to the fact I have no ear for music and am tone deaf ( really, I can't carry a tune in a bucket). I find it a real problem which is one reason I decided just to emulate as best as I could what I hear.

[js6426]

Makes sense!  Have to make a comment here though and ask your opinion on it.  I am also tone deaf, but, if all Chinese people can roll with tones, that would mean there are no Chinese people who are tone deaf (which surely can't be right), so surely tones must be produced in a different way to what we often think.  The movement of the mouth and tongue for example, rather than the actual sound of tone itself.  Any thoughts on that?  Don't really mind, just interested to see what you think!  If there is an easier way to produce a tone, using my mouth rather than thinking about the actual sound, perhaps it might be a tad easier.  Not going to do much for listening I don't think, which incidentally I find much harder, but still!

[imron]

12 minutes ago, js6426 said:

I am also tone deaf,

Imagine this conversation:

 

A: What sport does your son like to play?

B: He likes playing football.

A: He likes playing football?!?

 

If you can tell and pronounce the difference between the statement "He likes playing football"  and the incredulous question "He likes playing football?!?", then you have the capacity to learn, understand and say Chinese tones without issue.

[js6426]

That's what I was getting at.  But still, how can it be so difficult to recognize tones when they are spoken?  Perhaps it's the speed at which they spew them out!  I could easily say any of those sentences, I could understand them because I have 29 years of experience listening to English.  Maybe after 29 years tones will click for my listening hah!

 

[imron]

14 minutes ago, js6426 said:

But still, how can it be so difficult to recognize tones when they are spoken?

Being tone deaf musically, apparently does not generally affect tone perception in speech intonation.  From Wikipedia:

 

Tone-deaf people seem to be disabled only when it comes to music as they can fully interpret the prosody or intonation of human speech.

 

I don't know the why behind it.

 

[Shelley]

I think you are right, tone deaf doesn't stop people from understanding and learning languages, but I find it difficult to pitch things relative to each other. So my first tone will be too high or I start my third tone in the wrong place so then I have no where to go up and then down, I also have stop myself becoming too sing songy, diving up and down and all over because I can't keep the tones relative to each other.

I know the advice is probably listen, speak, practice and repeat, its not so easy in a non immersion situation and actually with no one to talk at all. I have joined the discord channel started by @Napkat so this might change.

[roddy]

"find it difficult to pitch things relative to each other. So my first tone will be too high or I start my third tone in the wrong place so then I have no where to go up and then down, I also have stop myself becoming too sing songy, diving up and down and all over because I can't keep the tones relative to each other."

That's not being tone deaf. That's a different medical condition, nonnativespeakeritis. I suffer myself.