Use of 这样 and 很多

[sunwukong88]

Hello there everybody :)!!

 

I am currently studying HSK4 vocabulary and I was looking at this website to understand how to use new items in context: http://www.learnmandarinchinese.com/

More precisely I was looking at the following expression: 合格 (Weilin dictionary:  hégé s.v./v.o. qualify; reach standard; pass | Chǎnpǐn ∼. The product is up to standard.)

The example I was looking at can be found at the following link: 

http://www.learnmandarinchinese.com/phrases/basic-3806/

 

 

Beside the incorrect English translation, the Chinese seems to be off as well. I would personally say:

(虽然)·这样包的价格很低，但是很多的这样包的质量不合格。Although the price of this kind of bags is low (this kind of bags are cheap), the quality of many of them is not up to standard.

Of course I could be wrong since I am not an expert in Chinese, therefore please let me know if I have made a mistake. 

样 should not have 的 since in this case behaves as a classifier and is translated as 'kind'. 

Moreover, I am not convinced about the sentence '很多质量'. Maybe I have misunderstood the whole thing but I guess that the sentence means that the quality 质量 of many 很多 of those bags is not up to standard. I thought you would actually need a noun whom 很多 can refer to, as in: 很多包/很多的这样包; unless here 很多 behaves as a pronoun and therefore there is no need to repeat the main topic. I hope you can help me clear all these doubts!!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[Publius]

Hmm, lots of questions. Let me see if I can sort it out for you.

Firstly, Chinese is a topic-prominent language. Topic-comment structure is very common.

这样的包 (topic)

　价格很低 (comment)

As for this kind of bags, the price is low, (whose price we're talking about is clear, without using a modifier)

　但是

　很多 (topic)

　　质量不合格 (comment)

    but as for many (of them), the quality is not up to standard. (the quality of what? of many of them, the topic)

And since in the second part, the top-level topic is still in effect, there is no need to repeat it. 'Many' can only have one possible referent: this kind of bags. When something is inferable from the context, we omit it instead of using a pronoun.

The topic-driven syntax and the frequent omission of known information will take some getting used to. But you'll get there eventually.

Hope this helps. And, add oil!

[sunwukong88]

That's great! Your exaplanation makes so much sense. I remember I studied the topic-comment structure during my bachelor but I need to get use to it as you say. I have still a doubt though. In the sentence '这样的包' zheyang seems to be used as an adjective since it is followed by 'de' and a noun (Adj + 的 + Noun). On Pleco dictionary I can see that 样 can also be used as a measure word/classifier with the meaning of 'kind'. Therefore if it is equivalent to a classifier then '的' should not be at all in the sentence. I mean, you would not say 这本的书 but 这本书, would you? Unless both constructions are correct but then my question would be:

 

这样的包

(Adj + 的 + Noun)

 

这样包

(Demonstrative adjective + Classifier + Noun)

 

Do they mean the same thing? 

Sorry if I am so annoying but I want to be sure I get everything right! Thank you so much for your patience!! 

[Publius]

这样包 is not right. Because the measure word that goes with 包 is 个. (EDIT: To express 'this kind of', the classifier is 种: 这种包.)

样 is a classifier in 这样东西 (demonstrative + classifier + noun).

这样的包 is simply a modifier phrase + noun, [这种样子的]包.

[sunwukong88]

Thank you so much!! And sorry again to be such a pain!

[gwr71]

From a grammatical point of view (linguistic) I have a slightly different approach.

Another way of looking at it is that it  is a Noun phrase with nominilization marker de with the noun as a head noun.   There is a Classifier/Measure word phrase with nominaliztion marker de ( which equates to an associative phrase ) which comes before the head noun.  

It gives a meaning like" as for this type of bags.."

 

 

[gwr71]

or Bags of this type...

it is up for grabs.  You need to look at Noun Phrase involving nominialization.  

The Np relates to the head noun.

 

The other area is where there is no nominialization there is the following:

 

classifier phrase + associative phrase + noun.  

 

The second schema does not violate the order of elements in a noun phrase which is as follows:

1. associative phrase + classifier/measure phrase + relative clause + adjective + noun or

2. associative phrase + relative clause + classifier/measure word phrase + adjective + noun.

 

The reason is that the second area is that the classifier/measure phrase go with the nouns next to them and not with the head nouns.

Let me give an example for any person who is confused right now and saying what is this crazy person talking about.

a. hong  de      hua.

    red NOM    flower

 

A Flower that is red.

 

b. hong hua

     red    flower

 A red flower.

 

next example:

 

a. nei ge   fandian    de cai.  = The food of that restaurant.

 

nei ge is a classifier/measure phrase  de is the nominilaztion marker and cai is the head noun.

 

This area can get really complex very fast.

for example:

 

wo de  nei ge hao peng you = That good friend of mine.

 

where   wo de = associative phrase; nei ge= classifier/measure word phrase; hao = adjective and peng you= head noun.

 

I hope you continue to read your grammer book on Noun Phrase.

Good luck

 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 at 04:28 AM by gwr71
error

[sunwukong88]

Thanks gwr71! That would make sense as well!