纪念抗日战争暨世界反法西斯胜利60周年

[chenpv]

I have been thinking for my first thread here in the forum. Since tomorrow is 8.15, I just wonder how do the western people see the War of Resistance Against Japan in the World War II; and how did you get the knowledge of the modern history of China (中国近代史) ------ through teacher; or books&magazines; or TV series&movies?

I have no problem with nice Japanese people and i am not trying to cause commotion here, just curious about it.

[fenlan]

Well, my only real comment is that the US won the war, but did so largely by manipulating Russia and China who did 95% of the fighting!

[aeon]

Well, my only real comment is that the US won the war, but did so largely by manipulating Russia and China who did 95% of the fighting!

Given that Russia and China were already in conflict with Germany and Japan by the time the US joined in, that is just a teensie weensie bit unfair don't you think?

I think you could safely argue that Russian and Chinese losses were greater than US losses, but without US involvement the folks in China would probably be speaking Japanese by now...

[Quest]

I think you could safely argue that Russian and Chinese losses were greater than US losses, but without US involvement the folks in China would probably be speaking Japanese by now...

US supplied Japan with everything they needed until one month before pearl harbor. It was a stalemate really, between China and Japan, although Japan had the advantage since the war was fought on Chinese soil.

[Outofin]

without US involvement the folks in China would probably be speaking Japanese by now...

Although I appreciate what Americans did, it's unfair to give them all the credits. Like Quest said, it was stalemate. Japanese probably did okay in northeast, but even in north China where they had occupied, they could not effetively govern the region. Japan could have a very long-run plan to take all China's vast land and population. But at that time, they avoided doing so, given its own capability. If we imagine that the US didn't exist on the planet at all, Germany and Japan would loss anyway.

In WW2, it was definitely not the first time that Chinese lost their land. (Yuan and Qing were minority dynasties.) But we still speak Chinese today.

[Song You Shen]

If we imagine that the US didn't exist on the planet at all, Germany and Japan would loss anyway.

I do not agree with this at all. If you look back what was going on previous to US involvement, you would see that Germany was on the verge of completely conquering the middle east area (with the Desert Fox - a brilliant german military general in Africa). With this, they could have continued to fuel their weapons program. Germany was also on the verge of completely wipping out the English threat. They had already disbanded all threats in Europe. Japan, while, not being a large continent, created their own demise... I can't imagine what made them think that attacking the US would accomplish anything while they were already waging a huge war in China.

I do not disagree that the Chinese played a huge role in that part of the battle, but it was certainly not 95% of the war with Japan. US fought with Japan in the waters 100%. If Japan had won the pacific waters, Japan would have had a large numbers of resources to aid them in their fight with China.

You cannot discredit either sides, China fought hard, and lost many lives, but they only fought on Chinese soil, correct (i'm not sure if this is correct)? Well, I do know that Russia played a defensive role, until they saw that they could easily take over the eastern part of Europe (at the end of the war). China was easily able to take over the places where Japan had invaded after the nukes, because the nukes disabled Japan.

The fact is the invasion of D-DAY (sponcered by the US) and the Nukes dropped on Japan were the turning point of the war. US was a huge supplier of ammo, vehicles, units, etc... without the US intervention in Europe they'd most likely be speaking German now... but who knows what would have happened...

Youshen

[Outofin]

I shouldn't have made that hypothesis, because this kind of hypothesis needs the wildest imagination to consider all the chain reaction.

The fact is the invasion of D-DAY (sponcered by the US) and the Nukes dropped on Japan were the turning point of the war.

That was exactly what was in my mind when I wrote the post -- the turning point! But, the turning point was not D-DAY. It was Stalingrad. Any explanations why the US joined the war so late?

You cannot discredit either sides, China fought hard, and lost many lives, but they only fought on Chinese soil, correct (i'm not sure if this is correct)?

I agree with your point that we all fought every hard and I admit the fact that we were weak compared to other allies. To point out a historical fact, China sent army to south asia fighting against Japanese.

[fenlan]

Youshen, your loyalty to the US is quite impressive. Yes it is true that the US fought Japan at sea, and lost about 700,000 people in the whole war. China lost at least 30 million, and China held down the majority of the Japanese army throughout the war. By the way, Zhang Rong's book on Mao shows that the Red Army only fought the Japanese on 2 occasions. The Nationalist Army did all of the real fighting, and yet the CCP has managed to convince China that it was the other way round!!!!!!!!!

[bhchao]

I can't imagine what made them think that attacking the US would accomplish anything while they were already waging a huge war in China.

I do not disagree that the Chinese played a huge role in that part of the battle, but it was certainly not 95% of the war with Japan. US fought with Japan in the waters 100%. If Japan had won the pacific waters, Japan would have had a large numbers of resources to aid them in their fight with China.

You cannot discredit either sides, China fought hard, and lost many lives, but they only fought on Chinese soil, correct (i'm not sure if this is correct)?

I agree that the US naval campaign in the Pacific played a very key role in the withdrawal of all Japanese forces in China. The Japanese airforce and navy was almost non-existent by August 1945 due to the war with the US. Without US involvement, the war in China would have lasted much longer.

Admiral Yamamoto and other Japanese naval officers said that the US should be the last country on Earth that Japan should fight. Yamamoto had personally witnessed American industrial strength when he was a student and naval attache in America.

I also agree that China played a significant role (but definitely not 95%) by tying down Japanese soldiers in China that could have been used against American forces in the Pacific.

Chinese troops did play a significant role in recovering Burma for the Allies under the leadership of General 孫立人. His New First Army in Burma was the most elite military unit (probably the best) of the KMT. He helped bail out British troops in the Battle of Yenanguang, for which the British were extremely grateful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Li-jen

[Song You Shen]

Youshen, your loyalty to the US is quite impressive. Yes it is true that the US fought Japan at sea, and lost about 700,000 people in the whole war. China lost at least 30 million, and China held down the majority of the Japanese army throughout the war.

hehe, I wouldn't consider it loyalty, although I am loyal to my country. I just wanted to get some facts set straight. I've been looking at many different historical sites and they all show that at most, 15 million Chinese were killed during WW2, and of those, 10 million were civilian. But don't get me wrong, I do not discredit what the Chinese did in anyway. The Chinese fought longer than the US did, and they fought on land (which would obviously mean more deaths). But I do believe that if Japan gained control of the Pacific waters (by defeating the US), they would have had a huge gain in resources which could have given them a larger incentive and desire, as well as resource, to continue their attack on China. There was a reason why we used nukes.... it was because at the time, we looked at the war and how it was going to be drawn out, and in the end America would have lost. We were hesitent to use the bombs, but were forced to use them so we wouldn't lose the Pacific.

To answer Outofin, there were many reasons why were didn't want to go to war. Just prior to the beginning of the war, the US economy had collapsed with the Great Depression. There were many worries about how we could go to war, when we couldn't even re-establish our own economy. We, at the time, were also bent on Isolationism (meaning, we wanted to stay out of the affairs of the rest of the world). By the time the war was in full progress, we were supplying almost every side with ammo, vehicles, etc. This was a huge boom to our economy and we finally got back on our feet. We were, for the most part, neutral to the war. However, we were split as a country. Half of us wanted to go to war (there were many many people who fled to canada to join the war). And there were an even larger number of people who wanted to remain in Isolation. Those that called for Isoationism for our country had a definite majority on what decision was going to be made... until Pearl Harbor. There were other smaller infractions that were occuring (like the Zimmerman Letter, and the U-Boats sinking US Travel Liners and Shipments of food, ammo, etc), but it was Pearl Harbor that pushed the US over the edge. Almost immediatly after this, the move for Isolationism almost completely halted, and so, we went to war.

As far as the turning point goes. Russia was at a stalemate. They could not make advancement because their economy was almost completely depleted, and that is why many of their forces retreated to Stalingrad. Russian troops were going to be forced back even farther, but they had something that fought for them... winter. The winter snow killed almost 2 times as many German troops as the Russians did. While this was a HUGE lose for the Germans, all it did was halt their press into Russia. Russia could not attack, because they did not have the resources to do so. Why I said the turning point was D-Day and what happened in Africa was because of these 2 points: 1) in Africa, the Desert Fox had completely established his foothold, and was entrentched so well that it would be extremely difficult to defeat him. However, a US General was sent to back up British troops in Africa. The US and British troops effectively cut off the supply line from Germany to the Desert Fox, and after a series of skirmishes, defeated him. The Desert Fox was the greatest General in the German army. Losing him was no small thing. 2) Up until D-Day, the German forces had been advancing. No attack, or battle had even pushed them back. Yes, the battle of Stalingrad halted their progress, but they were not pushed backed. D-Day was not just America's doing. It was part of the "Big Three" who decided to finally join forces and attack the main land of France. They understood that this would probably be their last chance to turn the tides of war. If this failed, they might not have enough resources to stop the Germans. Even though D-Day was a horrific day, it marked the beginning of pushing back the German forces. After D-Day, German forces were pushed back into Germany, and then eventually Germany itself went under seige until Hilter commited suicide and the end of the war begun.

I hope this helps out.

Youshen

[geraldc]

Half of us wanted to go to war (there were many many people who fled to canada to join the war).

That bit had me a bit confused, you don't flee to something you want to do.

I think the Germans had more troops and tanks committed to the Eastern front than to the Western front.

Most peoples views of history are governed by movies etc, you don't really see films about the Eastern front other than Cross of Iron. I guess movie audiences didn't want to see Russians as heroes during the Cold war.

[Outofin]

More regarding the turning point, simply an academical discussion:

In my middle school I was educated that the turning point was Stalingrad. Yousheng brought up a new viewpoint to me. I know that China could tend to over-rate Soviet's role, so I looked into other references. I happen to have a Atlas of World History published by Oxford.

Better prepared for the harsh climatic conditions, the Soviet forces counterattacked the following sprint, and while Gernamy made impressive gains in the south, in an effort to control the Soviet Union's oil resrouces, the retaking of Stalingrad by the Soviets in Feb 1943 marked a turning point. Soviet success at the massive tank battle of Kursk in July began Germany's long retreat westwards, which ended when Berlin fell to Soviet forces two years later.

Note, the above comments is made in the context of the whole WW2. So it's not accurate to say "Up until D-Day, the German forces had been advancing. No attack, or battle had even pushed them back."

I'm curious which viewpoint dominates academically.

One more question, people say Gemany chose to attack Soviet because they were principal ideological opponent. Why?

[Song You Shen]

That bit had me a bit confused, you don't flee to something you want to do.

I think the Germans had more troops and tanks committed to the Eastern front than to the Western front.

Most peoples views of history are governed by movies etc, you don't really see films about the Eastern front other than Cross of Iron. I guess movie audiences didn't want to see Russians as heroes during the Cold war.

Sorry, wrong choice of the word flee (was typing too fast). The US would not allow US Citizens to go to war during this time. There were some that desired to go to war, the only way they could do this was to go to Canada (who at the time was part of the Allies), where they could enlist freely. As far as how my views are governed... none of it cames from movies. I have taken almost 4 years of world history in school, ranging from middle school, high school and college... I have done many reports on WW2, so my knowledge is based on those facts.

As far as the turning point goes. I would agree, it was the turning point for Russia. But I am not sure it was the only turning point of the entire war. I can concete that there were 2 turning points which would make sense because there were 2 wars fought, the war on the west, and the war on the East. If one of them were to lose, then the other would most likely fall as well. However, here is a good resource for dates for the battle of stalingrad...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad.

As far as being Ideological enemies... it makes sense. Commuinism spouted that it wanted to make everyone live equally. However, Hitler was strictly "Arian Race" only (hense the holocuast, etc). Hitler's ideology did not allow for other races to live equally with Arians... therefore, Russia was in direct conflict with Germany.

Youshen

[geraldc]

Hitler and Stalin had a non aggression pact at the start of the war, and even though facism and communism were supposed to be ideological opposites, they could still do business with each other...

[studentyoung]

I feel very glad that there is such a thread on this special day. I want to say nothing but post the lyric I translated named “The Last Battle”, for those who died or hurt in the war, for Chinese and Japanese who value and love PEACE, and for all the people on the earth remember and celebrate this special day!

最后的战役 The Last Battle

歌词：方文山 Lyric by Mr. Fang, Wenshan (Translated by Studentyoung)

机枪扫射声中我们寻找遮蔽的战壕

In the blaze of gun, we were looking for a trench to be shielded.

儿时沙雕的城堡毁坏了重新盖就好

In childhood, the castle made of sand could be re-built if it were broken,

可是你那件染血布满弹孔的军外套

But your army uniform full of stained blood and gun holes told

却就连祷告手都举不好

you could not lift your arms to pray.

在硝烟中想起冰棒汽水的味道

In the smoke of gunpowder, what came into my mind were the smell of soda pop and ice-lolly

和那些无所事事一整个夏天的年少

and those idle time for the whole summer days in my childhood.

我放下枪回忆去年一起毕业的学校

Put down the gun, I recalled the school we had graduated together last year,

而眼泪一直都忘记要掉

with my tears forgotten to shed.

嘲笑的声音在风中不断被练习

The sound of mock was drilled again and again in the wind,

这树林间充满了敌意

in the woods full of hostility.

部队弃守阵地你坚持要我也离去

The troop gave up the position you insisted I should go with them,

我怎么能放弃

but it was you that I could not leave.

我留着陪你强忍着泪滴

I stayed with you, forcing back my tears.

有些事真的来不及回不去

For there was something too late to go back.

你脸在抽搐就快没力气

Your face twitching and your wind slipping,

家乡事不准我再提

You murmured nothing about hometown should be mentioned.

我留着陪你最后的距离

I stayed with you in the last distance

是你的侧脸倒在我的怀里

that was your head sank in my arms.

你慢慢睡去我摇不醒你

Your eyes were closing slowly, and I tried to wake you up in vain.

泪水在战壕里决了堤

There were only my tears, in the trench, flooded.

Thanks so much!

[Song You Shen]

I would love to hear that song... anyone have a link or would want to send it to me?

Youshen

[chenpv]

Thank you guys for giving me all these fabulous informations. Here I get my conclusion from those informations, but I dont know whether it is right.

First in chinese:

轴心国：德国虽输了，但不失为一条好汉。

日本输了，是因为不厚道。

意大利几乎没有被提到，可见其作用..........无语了

同盟国： 中俄英法赢了，但是赢得艰辛，忍辱负重。

美国赢了，确实是个投机者。

Then in english:

The Axis: Germany lost the war, though he could be regarded a man.

Japan lost the war, thats because he had demerits.

Italy was barely mentioned, and we can imagine what his role in the war was........speechless.

The Allies: China Russian UK France won the war, but suffered a long time and endured humiliations.

America won the war, but he was a good speculator.

[geraldc]

There's too many what ifs.

None of the allies could have won the war alone.

[Manchu]

Sorry if I'm poking a dead topic.

The US role in the Pacific War was crucial for the Allied effort. Yes, most of the fighting was done, and most lives were lost, on land. However, the Japanese occupation of China didn't lead to a great gain in resources; the islands did -- espescially in oil.

Also, talking about land vs. sea/marine battles is like comparing apples and oranges. What's needed for an army? Lots of people, lots of small machinges to move them. For a navy? Giant ships, and lots of planes with trained pilots.

While the KMT or USSR might have driven the Japanese out of China and Manchuria, they never could have harmed Japanese sea power, let alone threaten Japan proper. They fought a war of land defense. The US, of course, could never front the lives needed for this (though they helped with the Flying Tigers).

[wushijiao]

The US played a crucial role in the sea, and in the air. China, Korea and the other occupied territories fought hard and bravely. But, the US bombed Japan itself (killing untold innocents), and this end Japan's ability to make war. In other words, other countries fought the Japanese on the periphery of Japan's empire, while the US waged total war against Japanese industry, Japanese military bases, and Japan itself.

I think, to some degree, it is important to remember this. In China, every day in the newspaper one can read about heros who sacrificed their lives to defend China. But, very few people in China are aware of the massive American aerial bombings of Japan that really won the war. These bombings were originally done at low alttitudes, but much fewer American pilots were killed flying at 30,000 feet. Thus, to destroy, say, a factory America would scatter bomb a city, killing thousands of innocent women and children. Thus, in Nanjing and places like that, Japanese soldiers were the most brutual aggressors one could imagine. But on the home front, there is no doubt that many Japanese people were also victims.