Pinyin transcription and its pronunciation

[vivea]

So, whenever I hear someone saying words like 九, what I can hear is jiou, not jiu. I thought that something was wrong with me until I read somewhere that it's actually supposed to be spelled jiou, but pinyin conventions omit that 'o' for some reason. Yet I can hear it, and I tried to imitate the sound, and I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. Am I supposed to say jiou with a very short 'o', or is the last sound something in between 'o' and 'u'?

 

Another very similar question: when I hear a word like 岁, I don't hear it as sui, I hear some other letter there, like 'e'? It's barely audible, but it isn't sui that I hear, it's suei. Am I right? If I am, then again I'm not sure how to imitate it, is it sui with a very short 'e', or is the last sound something in between e and i?

 

And one last question: so, apparently the word 语 is not yu, but yv (a 'u' that has two dots over it). That one I didn't hear, I just read about it somewhere and was really surprised. Whatever gave people the idea to omit those dots?! They must've wanted to make things difficult on purpose... So how do I ever tell if the 'u' letter in pinyin transcription is a real 'u' or a 'v' (a u with two dots)?

 

[imron]

20 minutes ago, vivea said:

So how do I ever tell if the 'u' letter in pinyin transcription is a real 'u' or a 'v' (a u with two dots)?

If it's after a y, j, q, or x it is always ü.  In all other cases if it doesn't have the dots then it is 'u' and not 'ü'.

 

The reason for this is that there are no 'u' sounds after y, j, q, or x, only ü sounds, and so 'ü' can be written as 'u' without the pronunciation being ambiguous.

[Publius]

Your observations are all valid.

 

I'd say it's a design flaw in the pinyin romanization system. Keep in mind that its design goal was to teach Chinese people how to write their language using Latin alphabet, not to teach foreigners how to speak the language.

 

In the original 汉语拼音方案, which you can download here, there are several orthography notes, for example:

 

(4) ……

　ü 行的韵母，前面没有声母的时候，写成 yu(迂)，yue(约)，yuan(冤)，yun(晕)；ü 上两点省略。

    Syllables starting with ü are written as yu in place of ü (e.g., *üe is written as yue).

　ü 行的韵母跟声母 j，q，x 拼的时候，写成 ju(居)，qu(区)，xu(虚)，ü 上两点也省略；但是跟声母 n，l 拼的时候，仍然写成 nü(女)，lü(吕)。

    ü is written as u when there is no ambiguity (such as ju, qu, and xu), but written as ü when there are corresponding u syllables (such as lü and nü). In such situations where there are corresponding u syllables, it is often replaced with v on a computer, making it easier to type on a standard keyboard.

 

(5) iou, uei, uen 前面加声母的时候，写成 iu, ui, un。例如 niu(牛)，gui(归)，lun(论)。

When preceded by a consonant, iou, uei, and uen are simplified as iu, ui, and un (which do not represent the actual pronunciation).

 

This Wikipedia article summarizes it pretty well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Letters

[vivea]

49 minutes ago, Publius said:

When preceded by a consonant, iou, uei, and uen are simplified as iu, ui, and un

 

How do you tell if these are simplified or real, is it similar to the case of u with dots and there's no ambiguity?

 

And I didn't notice that about 'uen'!

 

I'm still interested if there's a secret to pronouncing such syllables correctly. Funny story: When I was talking to a Chinese guy online, we were talking about our ages, and I told him that when he says 岁I hear him saying suei. He objected, said that he's saying sui and added that something must be wrong with quality of our connection. Now that was weird! Maybe I was saying suei incorrectly and he rightly objected that it wasn't what he said.

[Publius]

These small inconsistencies are a common pitfall for foreign learners and native teachers alike. They just assume that it's written in alphabet so it must be phonetic.

 

You will never see 'uei' in pinyin. Because according to Rule #4b, when not preceded by a consonant, it's written as 'wei'; and according to Rule #5, when preceded by a consonant, it's written as 'ui'. But 'uei' is the underlying sound nonetheless. You were right. That Chinese guy was wrong.

Ditto 'uen' and 'iou'.

[imron]

3 hours ago, vivea said:

is it similar to the case of u with dots and there's no ambiguity?

Yes.  There's no ambiguity, and I guess that led to the decision to simplify them.

[edelweis]

4 hours ago, vivea said:

I'm still interested if there's a secret to pronouncing such syllables correctly.

You need a textbook with a table of all valid pinyin syllables, and the corresponding audio track.

Ideally it should also have explanations of each syllable in your native language.

Then you learn the sound of each syllable by listening and repeating.

Having a teacher or tutor will help ensure that you pronounce each syllable correctly.

[Publius]

The ü > u simplification is understandable. It's always easier to write a basic letter without diacritics (on a standard keyboard we write v instead of ü). Plus phonetically, j, q, x come from the palatalization of g, k, h triggered by a high front vowel i or ü. It's impossible for u (or a, o, e for that matter) to directly follow j, q, x. J, q, x can only combine with i or ü. That's clear at least to native speakers.

 

The decision to omit the nucleus, i.e. the loudest central vowel, from iou, uei, uen really puzzles me. Perhaps that way it's easier for English speakers to pronounce. But they're pronouncing it wrong. If that's not bad enough, it creates more confusion when deciding where to put the tone marks. So like I said, design flaw.

[mungouk]

56 minutes ago, edelweis said:

You need a textbook with a table of all valid pinyin syllables, and the corresponding audio track

 

This interactive table — part of the new-ish "Chinese Pronunciation Wiki" is pretty useful I think. 

 

Includes audio. Best used in fullscreen mode (hit the Enter Fullscreen button).

 

 

[NinjaTurtle]

Vivea,

 

The best thing to do is just make a list of all the ‘exceptions’. For example, I always hear 忙 as méng not máng. I just think of this as an ‘exception’ and then it doesn’t bother me. Another good example is 九 as jo not ju (as you have pointed out). Then there is 颜 written in Pinyin as yán but sounding like yén. And 元 written in Pinyin as yuán but sounding like yuén.

 

Get started on your list of ‘exceptions’.

 

[Publius]

Yeah, a pinyin table is a good place to start.

It's pretty clear from these tables, for example, that yu is nothing but ü spelled differently when there is no initial consonant; or that j/q/x and g/k/h are in complementary distribution: j/q/x only combine with finals starting with i/ü, g/k/h only combine with finals not starting with i/ü.

When in doubt, consult this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology

 

I suspect NinjaTurtle has a bad accent. The standard pronunciation for 忙 is [maŋ˧˥] (máng), nowhere near [məŋ˧˥] (méng). His observations of 颜 and 元 are good. They are [jɛn˧˥] (yán) and [ɥɛn˧˥] (yuán) respectively. He just doesn't understand that pinyin is a romanization system not a phonetic transcription system. Does p represent the same sound in 'spy' and 'pie'? Or a in 'father', 'fat', 'fate', 'fella'? Why are they spelled the same in English? Why would anyone expect otherwise with pinyin? Pinyin e is used to spell at least three different sounds: [ɤ], [ə], [e]. It's a fact of life -- there are only so many letters -- unless everybody starts using IPA.

[NinjaTurtle]

11 hours ago, Publius said:

I suspect NinjaTurtle has a bad accent.

 

I have heard Chinese people pronounce it méng a hundred times.

[Publius]

10 minutes ago, NinjaTurtle said:

I have heard Chinese people pronounce it méng a hundred times.

Then how do they pronounce 萌 (e.g. 你好萌啊 You're so cute)? Any difference?

[陳德聰]

Also depends where you are in China.

 

I know that NinjaTurtle’s level of Chinese is not yet fluent, so it would not be unusual for him to think a certain accented speech sound is closer to a sound he is familiar with. That being said I don’t know what region would do this.

 

The -ian and -üan sounds and the -ie sounds frustrate me a little bit, not gonna lie. Was probably worth adding just one more pinyin vowel at the time, but alas.