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Pianote

Why Don't Chinese Like Black People?

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歐博思
On 9/24/2018 at 4:03 PM, 大块头 said:

Let's review:

You expressed your opinion that racism towards black people doesn't exist in China.

To be fair, I think this may be approaching strawman levels as well. I think studychinese was more referring to social upbringing (different birth country) versus genetic differences (skin color). Nature vs nurture.

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XiaoXi

One thing this thread has shown is the main difference between Westerners and Chinese in their attitude towards racism. Even those who tried to defend China or lighten it a bit in this thread, it's clear they have one huge difference, and that is they believe it's wrong! Racism is generally viewed by the general population of the west as something not good at all, whereas in China, it's really not viewed that way. I've never met anyone in China who wasn't quite openly racist towards Blacks, Indians etc.

 

We may have some awful stories in the west of racially aggravated violence, police being prejudice, racism against those seeking employment etc but that is only a small portion of the population whereas in China, it's MOST people...if not almost everyone. How many Chinese girls could take home a black bf to meet their parents without world war 3 breaking out? My current gf is racist towards black and indian, my ex was too (and she was very westernised with more than 10 years living abroad) and my ex before that. Even my teacher in China was (as described previously)...we even had a nationwide tv advert with a black guy being 'cleaned' into a no longer dirty, 'white' Chinese guy. A white guy from Italy with dodgy English will get an English teaching job over a black guy from England very easily.

 

So how in the world is it even taboo to be racist in China? It's not. The best you will get if you confront someone Chinese about their racism is they will try to use a 'two wrongs make a right' argument by comparing it with American's slavery from 300 years ago.

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Pianote

@LiMo  This was great! What can I do to change perceptions?  Are there any provinces that are more accepting of black people?

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LiMo

@Pianote  Thanks, I'm glad you found it helpful. I must admit that like a lot of people in my position I'm probably better at pointing out problems than I am at finding solutions haha. Being a good upstanding citizen for us is, unfortunately, the bare minimum and seldom good enough on its own. In this I'm tempted to defer to the women on the ground actually, such as your good self, and this lady. It might be worth getting in touch with her to see what you can get involved with. It can be extremely difficult to change people's minds about this stuff, we're dealing with an all encompassing world view that often just requires too much background knowledge and the allure of simple answers is often too great for members of the majority. If you like blogging and have the language skills then maybe keeping a Chinese language blog would be a good place to start. Part of what keeps people apart is the lack of access to their authentic lives, buying groceries, hating your boss, stuff that happens the world over and makes you realise that we're not that different. If you have any hobbies that can be shared with your students or other locals then it might be worth trying to start a class if you have the time and energy.

 

As to the second question, I must be honest and say that I don't have enough experience in China to say much, it might be worth asking on expat forums and hopefully others will know better. If I had to answer I would say it might be worth checking out Yiwu. I know I mentioned it a lot alongside Guangzhou and maybe gave the impression that they have similar problems, but from Bodomo's work Yiwu is a lot better for the Africans there. Also, something I was mulling over for some time, and have also seen alluded to by someone online, is the fact that some very small places may be better than big cities because eventually you become the black person. Without large numbers of people circulating through on a daily basis, you may paradoxically find that smaller more "backwards" places can be more accommodating in the long run because you become familiar to everyone, something that can't happen in a mega city. Of course this is highly speculative and I have no personal experience to back it up, I suppose it's something to think about.

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Lu

@LiMo, that was a somewhat depressing but very informative and excellent post, thank you!

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歐博思
12 hours ago, LiMo said:

Part 3 - African Traders, International Students, and "Cyber-racism"

 

In the third and most recent period, from the millennium onwards, there are two big differences from the previous two. The first is the big increase in reciprocal migration between China and Africa on a large scale, places like Guangzhou and Yiwi have become hubs for African traders

Fascinating read so far. I think Yiwi is a typo for 义乌 Yiwu? Some Chinese friends mentioned there were lots of black businessmen there.

 

edit::: https://youtu.be/YsJWGTmJU94?t=690 "奥巴马黑 Obama Black". Whole video's kinda interesting.

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XiaoXi
15 hours ago, LiMo said:

It's no surprise that without any reason to stop and rethink these things, the general trend towards anti-racism has not extended (far in) to China.

Yes I doubt it would happen in China since Chinese people don't tend to have a strong feeling of 'doing the right thing'...unless it's directly concerning their own family. Which is why we have so many scandals like the baby formula scandal and all the stealing of copyrighted materials from the west without a second thought. Otherwise if racism came solely from the west, it wouldn't be worse than it is in the west. The big difference is not the severity of the racism, but the quantity. The percentage of people racist towards blacks in China surely must be one of, if not the highest in the world. I think if you randomly went outside in China trying to find someone not racist I think it would be hard, whereas in Western countries like the UK and USA it would be very easy.

 

Black people have had a terrible history, but in the modern world it's normally white people who are most easily offended by racism towards blacks and that fight to make a difference. The problem has to be solved by the Chinese themselves.

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LiMo

@歐博思

Thanks for pointing out the typo. Fixed it. I'll also take a look at the video. 🙂

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LiMo

@XiaoXi

 

It's hard to say which is worse because of the many different kinds of racism. Certainly, people are much more open about it and there's almost no awareness of the harms of 'everyday racism.' When it comes to making comparisons with other countries I've heard pretty bad things about India, the Middle East (West Asia as I sometimes say in my more frivolous moments), and South America. You could look into the treatment of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, they still prefer some kinds of Jews over others there. My Pakistani friends here in London have occasionally said things, particularly when it comes to the possibility of them dating a Black person, that have made me very disappointed in them (although my Black friends aren't innocent either). I dunno what to say, I don't think China is actually the worst, it's probably level pegging it with a lot of those other places, but then I haven't looked into the evidence so that's mere speculation. Personally, if I have the time, I may sit down and look into anti-racist activities in China. There's at least one example I know of, and hopefully I'll be able to find more.

 

 

On 10/1/2018 at 7:03 AM, XiaoXi said:

all the stealing of copyrighted materials from the west

 

This is something that I hear a lot. It's understandable but I think it's a somewhat misguided view based on incorrect assumptions about how countries develop. While I'm not going to defend any individual act of plagiarism or industrial espionage, at the macro scale there's a strong argument that copyright and IPR is now holding back the development of other nations. Certainly, most developed nations did so under much more lax IPR rules than those present today. There was a lively debate around things like patents and copyright when they were first introduced, some countries refused to recognise copyright issued in other countries, and others argued that patents were an unjust monopoly. It's only gradually that we've gotten used to the idea that my idea is my idea and no one on earth can copy it without permission/paying - bearing in mind of course that these rights are given to the first person to register them regardless of who actually invented or laboured to create the IP in question (at least I think that's how it works). Anyway, the point is that China is actually just the most recent example of this, it was South Korea before them, Japan before them, and probably even the US at one point. A nice easy read that goes into this topic and others is Bad Samaritans: The Guilty Secrets of Rich Nations & The Threat to Global Prosperity by Ha-Joon Chang. It's well worth a read and spells out how countries have developed historically - hint: it wasn't through free trade and respecting copyright law - and the obstacle that the false narratives present for developing countries today.

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imron
1 hour ago, LiMo said:

probably even the US at one point

There's no probably about it.  The early US more or less completely ignored foreign copyrights. 

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Dawei3

LiMo - Superb post!  Thanks for educating all of us.

 

22 hours ago, LiMo said:

copyright and IPR is now holding back the development of other nations

 

While it might seem that IPR enforcement stops local development, IPR enforcement can help development as well.  One of the things that has hurt innovation in China is that lax IPR enforcement often means new technology is rapidly copied and as a result, no one makes money.  They don't just copy Western or Japanese technology, they copy that of domestic companies as well.  One article I read noted that the legal version of DVD produced by a Beijing studio was estimated to have a 0.5% market share.  A study from >10 years ago noted that >92% of the software in China was pirated and as a result, there was no profit for domestic companies to create software themselves.  Lack of IPR has greatly hurt innovation in China.  Also, when a company can't make money in it's own country, it typically lacks the finances to develop an international business and hence, can't build the economy of its own country.  As a result, China is making attempts to enforce IPR to foster the growth of innovative domestic companies.    

 

Also, lack of IPR enforcement also fosters counterfeiting - a terrible problem that China has struggled with.  Are the drugs you just bought real or fake?  Is that replacement part for your car real or will it immediately fail?  Will that A-cable for your iphone work once, twice or 3 times before failing?  Counterfeiting hurts both high quality domestic producers and importers because it's profitable to counterfeit products if IPR enforcement is lax. 

 

 

 

 

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DavyJonesLocker
2 hours ago, Dawei3 said:

 

Also, lack of IPR enforcement also fosters counterfeiting - a terrible problem that China has struggled with.

 

 

I think the "can't be bothered enforcing it" attitude is still prevalent in China, although it looks like it's getting better. QQ music, XiaMi seem to often have song titles unavailable for download quoting that they are copyright protected 

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XiaoXi
On 10/4/2018 at 8:42 AM, LiMo said:

It's hard to say which is worse because of the many different kinds of racism. Certainly, people are much more open about it and there's almost no awareness of the harms of 'everyday racism.' When it comes to making comparisons with other countries I've heard pretty bad things about India, the Middle East (West Asia as I sometimes say in my more frivolous moments), and South America.

When I compared China with the West I was referring to countries like the UK, USA, Germany, France etc. India at least has a lot of diversity in it's own population....whereas China....doesn't....at all.

 

On 10/4/2018 at 8:42 AM, LiMo said:

This is something that I hear a lot. It's understandable but I think it's a somewhat misguided view based on incorrect assumptions about how countries develop.

I think if we were allowed to freely help ourselves to money in banks or from the rich it would also solve all the poverty in the world but not sure if this is the best argument..

 

On 10/4/2018 at 8:42 AM, LiMo said:

It's only gradually that we've gotten used to the idea that my idea is my idea and no one on earth can copy it without permission/paying - bearing in mind of course that these rights are given to the first person to register them regardless of who actually invented or laboured to create the IP in question (at least I think that's how it works).

An idea and an invention are the same concept. If the person inventing something was not given any credit then as soon as he announced his idea all the huge companies would develop it and he would likely not receive a cent. So no one would bother inventing anything anymore. Or at least they wouldn't want to reveal their idea/invention to the world. Copyright is a sound idea that works well. If you have a better idea then let's hear it but having nothing at all is just chaos.

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DavyJonesLocker
47 minutes ago, XiaoXi said:

An idea and an invention are the same concept. If the person inventing something was not given any credit then as soon as he announced his idea all the huge companies would develop it and he would likely not receive a cent. So no one would bother inventing anything anymore. Or at least they wouldn't want to reveal their idea/invention to the world. Copyright is a sound idea that works well. If you have a better idea then let's hear it but having nothing at all is just chaos

 

Absolutely otherwise the pharmaceutical world would come to a standstill. 

 

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陳德聰

I think intellectual property rights and their impact on China’s development is a really cool topic to start a new thread about.

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XiaoXi
2 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

Absolutely otherwise the pharmaceutical world would come to a standstill. 

Or more precisely, pretty much the whole world full stop would come to a standstill. Any inventions and developments would slow and probably come to a halt...hard to say really but I'd imagine something like this would happen? What motivation would people have to develop anything new.

 

1 hour ago, 陳德聰 said:

I think intellectual property rights and their impact on China’s development is a really cool topic to start a new thread about.

Not sure if it is really. There are loads of ways to develop quickly which aren't ethical. A country could send people out to hijack other countries' transports of resources for example. Stealing intellectual property is probably the only one that wouldn't provoke a direct war. But you're right we are diverting away from the thread's original topic.

 

To sum up racism China vs West: if you're black or Indian for example, in the USA you may be physically attacked due to your race, but these kinds of things are few and far between and the vast majority of people are against racism....even to the point of crazy political correctness (eg the calling black people African American craziness). However, in China I would doubt there would be so many racially aggravated attacks, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who wasn't generally racist towards you.

 

So it's basically quantity vs severity I guess.

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