BeachSmiles Posted January 22, 2019 at 05:06 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 at 05:06 AM Hello I own an antique Chinese incense burner Fangding with cloisonne enamel. It has been in my family for 100 years. We are nearly certain it is from the Qing Dynasty late 17th , early 18th century I need help translating the inscription on the bottom. I appreciate all help and any insights into this beautiful antique. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelley Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:55 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:55 AM Hello and welcome to the forum, The format that your pictures are in won't work for me. If you click on choose files in the bottom left of the reply box this will allow you to upload pictures from your computer, a .jpg is usually the best format. Hope this helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:21 PM Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:21 PM You're linking to a picture in your Gmail inbox I suppose, but nobody can see what's in your inbox except you. It may display correctly for you but not for everyone else. You need to upload the picture here as Shelley says. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachSmiles Posted January 22, 2019 at 03:15 PM Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 at 03:15 PM Thank you Here you go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachSmiles Posted January 23, 2019 at 02:50 AM Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 at 02:50 AM I'd appreciate any translations on the the inscription. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted January 23, 2019 at 05:34 AM Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 at 05:34 AM It's a beauty. Unfortunately I can't read the inscription. It's in seal script (or even in imitation of bronze script). You need an expert. From the few characters I do recognize though, I suspect we've seen this text before in Tattoos, Names and Quick Translations subforum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachSmiles Posted January 23, 2019 at 06:14 PM Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 at 06:14 PM Hello I own this Fangding and would love translation of the script Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomsima Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:50 PM Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:50 PM As you've already posted this twice before, it is probably worth saying that at present noone on this forum is able to translate this, as the characters used are forms which are from thousands of years ago. I could guess some of them, eg ...又作寳...用高... but still wouldn't be able to tell you what the inscription means, as the form of Chinese used is very, very different to the modern form of Chinese many of us here study. However the inscription may well be a common or generic one commonly used on these kinds of ding, so if someone can read the characters, you can then search the meaning on Baidu fairly easily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachSmiles Posted January 24, 2019 at 01:28 AM Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 01:28 AM Thank you Tomsima, I appreciate your response and insight. I wanted to post it in the right forum. I'd love if you give me guesses: 又作寳...用高. I'm very curious Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachSmiles Posted January 24, 2019 at 01:33 AM Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 01:33 AM If anyone can read the characters and post and I will search on Baidu Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted January 24, 2019 at 09:56 AM Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 09:56 AM Merged two topics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flickserve Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:02 AM Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:02 AM 8 hours ago, BeachSmiles said: anyone can read the characters and post and I will search on Baidu Thanks Why don’t you take it to an antiques expert? Probably they would know a specialist in that area to help you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
889 Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:20 AM Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:20 AM Too much work for me, but if the OP has the time and commitment he can search 景泰蓝 香炉 on Google Images and try to come up with a similar inscription, probably transcribed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OneEye Posted January 24, 2019 at 03:49 PM Popular Post Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 03:49 PM That is beautiful. 17 hours ago, Tomsima said: at present noone on this forum is able to translate this Not quite true. ;) 17 hours ago, Tomsima said: 又作寳...用高 Close, and an easy mistake to make! That part is 父作寳...用享. Here's the full transcription: 曼龏父作寶 盨用享孝宗 室用丐眉壽 子子孫孫永寶用 Note that I'm using characters readable to modern readers. If I were doing this for paleographers it would be a bit different (曼龏父乍寶盨用亯孝宗室用匄眉壽子々孫々永寶用). Translation: "Man Gong Fu made this Xu as an offering to ancestors and to pray for longevity. May my progeny treasure and use it forever." Some additional information: This is a very common, formulaic type of inscription for a Zhou era bronze vessel. These vessels were often made to commemorate something good or auspicious that happened, and/or (as in this case), to offer to their ancestors for good fortune, long life, etc. A Xu (盨) is a type of bronze vessel. But what you have isn't a Xu. It's a Ding (鼎) of some sort (another type of bronze vessel). It may be a Fangding (方鼎) as you said, but I'm not an expert on bronze vessels (my specialty is ancient scripts, not the artifacts themselves). This also isn't a Zhou bronze vessel. If it has genuinely been in your family for a hundred years as you say, it's most likely from the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912). The decoration looks Qing-ish to me, but again I'm not a specialist. So it's probably a Qing copy of a Zhou-era style of bronze vessel with contemporary (Qing) decorations added, or it's inspired by the Zhou era (仿古 "pseudo-classical"), or something like that. You'd need to have it looked at by a specialist to be sure, and it's probably worth doing so. As for the inscription itself, whoever made the Ding probably copied it from some Xu they had access to. Or it was a copy of a copy (of a copy...). The characters themselves are correct, or very close to it, for the Zhou era, so it was probably copied directly from an authentic vessel, or from a good copy. The inscription could be Spring and Autumn (春秋), because I don't know of that particular variant of 壽 existing earlier than that (though it's possible). In researching this inscription, I found a recent post on reddit requesting a translation for the exact same inscription, but with slight cosmetic differences and on a different vessel. I also found a Sotheby's posting for a Qing era (they date it to the 1700s) pseudo-classical bronze (different style of vessel) with the same inscription. Possibly exactly the same inscription, meaning cast from the same mold, because they look identical to my eye (I'd need higher resolution photos of the Sotheby's piece to be sure). It sold for US$16,250 so yes, it may be worth getting this looked at by a specialist. This was fun. I haven't had a chance to do this sort of thing for a while. 7 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomsima Posted January 24, 2019 at 05:10 PM Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 05:10 PM 1 hour ago, OneEye said: Not quite true haha emphasis on 'at present'! 1 hour ago, OneEye said: Close, and an easy mistake to make! That part is 父作寳...用享. thats the difference between someone specialising in calligraphy with someone specialising in paleography right there... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted January 24, 2019 at 05:22 PM Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 05:22 PM 20 minutes ago, Tomsima said: haha emphasis on 'at present'! Ha. I admit I don't participate here nearly as much as I used to, but I still check in a lot. 20 minutes ago, Tomsima said: thats the difference between someone specialising in calligraphy with someone specialising in paleography right there... You might find 杜忠誥《說文篆文訛形釋例》 interesting. Prof. Tu is a renowned calligrapher, and also an accomplished paleographer. His knowledge of the mechanics of brush writing informs his research on corruption in the Shuowen. It's a tour de force of a book. He also had us (I took his course on corruption at 台師大) copy the Shuowen by hand. Every head character and its 小篆 form (and 古籀文 when they exist). As a calligrapher, spending a few months doing that would be massively beneficial. It would take you a long way toward being able to read stuff like this (assuming you have a decent knowledge of 古文), and it would also elucidate some of the 草書 forms you'll encounter. In fact, I took a course on reading 草書, and that professor also had us copy the Shuowen, for that very reason. Many 草書 forms derive from 小篆 rather than 楷書. I had to copy it three times that year. Once is plenty. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted January 24, 2019 at 05:31 PM Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 05:31 PM 17 hours ago, Tomsima said: at present noone on this forum is able I once said there wasn’t much chance of a nuclear physicist turning up to answer the OP’s question. Five minutes later... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted January 24, 2019 at 06:47 PM Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 at 06:47 PM Found this inscription in a very old thread. But it's not how I remembered seeing it... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachSmiles Posted January 25, 2019 at 02:54 PM Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 at 02:54 PM wow Mr. One Eye thank you!! I appreciate your great translation here!! Yes, my grandfather passed on when my dad was just 16 yet he loved fine antiques and had bought many, so it's been in the family for around 80 years. I have put it in for an evaluation with some antique houses and I will keep you all posted. Mine has the taotie masks and dragon legs. http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2007/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-l07212/lot.352.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted January 26, 2019 at 05:20 AM Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 at 05:20 AM Please do keep us posted! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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