The Textbook debate

[Shelley]

Inspired by this topic here https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/45797-where-to-purchase-audio-for-textbook-thought-and-society-used-at-iup-iclp-mtc/ I thought it would be interesting to see what everyone else's opinion is.

Just vote if you want or add a comment but keep it relevant:) 

[mackie1402]

I think the question is more of who prefers using textbooks entirely, who likes to mix up textbooks with other materials, and who prefers to use materials other than textbooks. I'm not sure anyone would say textbooks aren't useful, but perhaps would find other learning methods more suitable for their needs.

 

Personally I like to use multiple textbooks at the same time. I get to see the same words and phrases in a different context, and see how grammar is used in different situations. Helps me review and brush up on what I've already learnt. 

 

Nowadays I've moved onto Business Chinese textbooks which has opened a whole new world when it comes to vocabulary. That and some Princeton Chinese books for casual reading.

[Shelley]

I asked this question because of the discussion in the other topic, where it did seem like a yes/no question of textbooks being used at all was being asked.

 

Personally I advocate textbooks for beginners without a doubt, after then it depends on so many things, why and where you are learning, what you intend to do with the language and what your first language is. I have kept up the textbooks as a backbone to my learning  with as many other things added to round out my learning.

 

It is a Big question so I thought a simple poll with the option for people to leave comments to clarify, expound or otherwise add to their vote would a least get an overall picture of the general consensus.

[Wurstmann]

I don't like textbooks because they waste a lot of time with speaking-, grammar- and other exercises. And that's not how we acquire language.

 

Here in Germany students have around 9 years of English classes, 5 days a week. The only ones who get really good are those who spend a lot of time watching movies or on the English part of the internet outside of class. I think it would be more effective for the teachers to show a movie every day and tell their students to go watch Youtube at home. But in that case they wouldn't be able to administer tests to grade the students... 

 

If I were to start learning Chinese now, I would just read through the grammar wiki and Anki the example sentences. All why listening to lots of Chinese every day. 

[Shelley]

@Wurstmann so would you actually vote option 3? I mean do you really think they are useless?

[Tomsima]

This topic is a slow burner; I'd be interested to hear Wurstmanns opinions in a few years time - not suggesting that you're wrong, on the contrary I'd be really interested in hearing how effective your study approach stays the same/develops over time

[mouse]

On 4/12/2019 at 1:12 AM, Shelley said:

 

I asked this question because of the discussion in the other topic, where it did seem like a yes/no question of textbooks being used at all was being asked

 

 

The discussion in the other thread came up when I suggested that someone with an advanced intermediate level should put the textbooks away and start focusing on native material. Those who disagreed said that textbooks were better. I don’t remember anyone saying that textbooks should never be used (and nor did anyone say that one should only use textbooks).

 

It’s unlikely that anyone would actually argue that textbooks are completely useless. The argument is usually that they are not as good as native materials, and the exercises in many of them are actively harmful in that they in effect get you to practice making mistakes.

[Wurstmann]

11 hours ago, Tomsima said:

This topic is a slow burner; I'd be interested to hear Wurstmanns opinions in a few years time - not suggesting that you're wrong, on the contrary I'd be really interested in hearing how effective your study approach stays the same/develops over time

 

I won't be able to do that for Chinese unfortunately. I studied some Chinese in university, so I have used Integrated Chinese Level 1 Part 1 + 2 before ?

I want to learn either French or Spanish. I won't be using any textbooks. When I've decided on a language I will let you know how it goes.

 

On 2019/4/11 at 8:01 PM, Shelley said:

so would you actually vote option 3? I mean do you really think they are useless?

I voted 2. You can use them for grammar explanations and the example sentences in the beginning.

 

I don't know if something like this exists for Chinese. That would be ideal. Those books have their sentences in an i + 1 order.

Edit: Now that I think about it this Anki deck is exactly what I'm looking for. If I were starting now, I would just do that.

[ChTTay]

7 hours ago, Wurstmann said:

Now that I think about it this Anki deck is exactly what I'm looking for. I

 

Has anyone used Spoonfed Chinese?

 

I'm trying to start studying again and it looks like it could be good if it’s not just a beginning deck. They claim 3-5 years worthy of sentences. 

[Publius]

I have the Spoonfed deck. 8142 sentences. Some of the later ones are definitely not beginner level:

锄强扶弱，惩恶扬善。

火灾过后，只剩下颓垣断壁。

他曾是一代枭雄。

If you can use 一代枭雄 in conversation, I'll put you firmly at HSK6+

[Wurstmann]

Yeah, it starts with 你好！and ends with 彼得是一个利他主义的游戏玩家，他会把东西给需要的人，而不是为一己之私利出售。

You probably won't even have to do the whole deck before transitioning to native materials.

[haveheart]

On 4/14/2019 at 2:18 AM, ChTTay said:

Has anyone used Spoonfed Chinese?

I've been using Spoonfed Chinese mostly consistently for a month or so now. Since I'm not a total beginner (1700 characters known ish) i ended up using Anki's browser to skim over cards in the deck until I reached words that were mostly unfamiliar. I suspended 2287 and have 334 mature,  187 young, and 5000 unseen so far. It's been a good supplement to studying cards I found in reading (in Pleco's srs) and watching Chinese tv. My listening is my weakest point so I've been looking away from Anki, listening to the card's audio, repeating it, then looking and if I understood it and know the characters then I pass the card. It's not perfect (found a couple typos so far and mismatched audio), but its way better than what I had when I started learning. Like WurstMann says, I'm hoping to use this as almost a crutch for a few thousand cards before leaning more on native material. 

I'd be interested in hearing other people's experiences with that deck too!  

[Flickserve]

Books do have their merits. Probably needed more heavily, lightly or not at all at different times during the learning process.

[PerpetualChange]

Sticking with a textbook series allows you to build a strong foundation of core vocabulary before moving into native materials. Even if the textbook is stilted it provides you with that grounding that will be so helpful when you branch out. And a good textbook will constantly be reinforcing the vocab you already learned.

[DavyJonesLocker]

On 4/11/2019 at 11:05 PM, mackie1402 said:

Personally I like to use multiple textbooks at the same time. I get to see the same words and phrases in a different context, and see how grammar is used in different situations. Helps me review and brush up on what I've already learnt. 

 

 

this is important actually, I remember at the start of my studies all my fellow students had the same complaint "I can't relate the comprehension book (NPCR) to the spoken book" It did seem like two different languages. It takes a heck of a long time for the fog to clear. I too like to see a few different text books at the same level as if you rely on one,  that particular author's writing style  is too prevalent and you end up believing that there is only one way to write Chinese. 

 

As regards the topic of text books in general, I still believe that they should be the mainstay up to HSK5. HSK6 only if you want a HSK route as the grammar is easily picked up by context (and a good dictionary) Now it's important to note I mentioned mainstay, My biggest mistake in regards reading Chinese was not getting away from the textbooks early enough, i.e. the first month. I don't mean put them aside, I mean supplement them with native material. that can be simply wechat, street signs, text messages, Chinese apps.. That way you see in what context a word is used (e.g. the way they would use 将 instead of 把,  便 instead of 就， 用 instead of 吃，喝)  So you don't really need to understand the whole passage, however it gives you an awareness of these little adverbs, conj etc  that you can easily pass by in text books not realising they are used in every day life. E.g in a coffee shop they might say  在这儿用吗

 

Also it helps with the almost unavoidable habit of translating your native language directing to Chinese. For example, in Chinese excuse me is 劳驾. Used a heck of a lot in UK but to this day I never once heard anyone use that in China. E.g on a subway escalator you might say 过一下,  to pass someone who is standing on the left 

 

Further text books by nature need to divide the chapter into separate topics so its hard to know whats a frequent use of a word, grammar point and what isn't. The good ones will try to bring previously learned words into the later chapters but when you pass several thousand it is just not possible without the passage becoming unwieldy . Also as you get to HSK5 or so a lot of the passages might seem a tad awkward as they are trying to force those less use words into a text for sake of exposure. Every time I show a passage to a native speaker they say "well there is nothing wrong with it, just sounds odd to use words in that context” 

 

Its always noticeable that a lot of foreigners use the same words as they picked them up early on text books or haven't reached enough exposure to see the difference, thus stick with what they learnt. E.g 散步  for strolling around , whereas they might probably want to say 溜达溜达 ， 走一走，转转 etc

 

Textbooks are however a very concise way to covering all the bases. I, every few months will read an entire text book that's well below my level in a weekend. Although they are dull and although I know the story inside out it's a great way to "see the wood from the trees" so to speak

 

So, in my view textbooks are the ingredients of the cake but native material is the binder that keeps it all together.

 

 

[Larry Language Lover]

This topic is very interesting to me, especially from people like you guys here on the forum.  You are all light years ahead of me in experience and knowledge.  I am familiar with no textbooks except for one that a free trial Skype Chinese teacher sent to me.  And then we didn't even use it.

As a beginner who has done the Chinese tree on Duolingo and made the tree golden (taken each skill and repeated the exercises to the highest measured level and kept repeating them after that, this time from bottom to top, and done all the exercises on ChineseSkill and HelloChinese,  what textbook or textbook series would you recommend to me for independent study?

The only exposure I have to Chinese so far is from these 3 apps (except for 4  one hour free trial Skype lessons from different sources.) 

[NinjaTurtle]

Larry,

 

I would say that, even before you get into a textbook, you need to learn Pinyin and get it down cold. There a few tricky points in Pinyin you have to learn, and you need to start working on them now.

 

[mungouk]

12 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

So, in my view textbooks are the ingredients of the cake but native material is the binder that keeps it all together.

 

@DavyJonesLocker this is a really insightful and helpful post — thanks!

 

[Larry Language Lover]

3 hours ago, NinjaTurtle said:

I would say that, even before you get into a textbook, you need to learn Pinyin and get it down cold. There a few tricky points in Pinyin you have to learn, and you need to start working on them now.

 

I have done a few free online hour long lessons with Chinese teachers that since it is their first lesson with me they usually start out with Pinyin to and ask me to pronounce it.

They have said I have good pronunciation and quickly move on to other things like "read this sentence and tell me what it means".    The latest one told me there are two methods she uses, one normally for English speakers and she said "I'm going to use the one that Chinese people use to learn and not that one".   I didn't really understand the method but it also was pronunciation with me repeating what she said.   The teacher before her told me he thought I should use an HSK 3 level textbook and showed it to me and said "this is the textbook we will use if you book further lessons with me."

[NinjaTurtle]

Larry,

 

I have had a lot of trouble over the years with my teachers who use teaching methods that don’t work for me. Let me give you some advice.

 

Find out what kind of teaching methods work for you. I know exactly what works for me and what does not. It may take a while, but this will be time well spent.

 

Once you find out what works for you, find a teacher who will teach that way for you. If a teacher is not teaching the way you like, either ask the teacher to change styles (yeah, good luck with that one) or find another teacher.

 

One thing needs to be mentioned. Foreign language is taught a certain way in China. If you get a teacher from China, that is how they will probably teach you. I have seen a great deal of inflexibility on this point with teachers from China. Once again, if you need to, change to a teacher who uses methods that work for you.

 

A teacher that says the two of you will use a level three textbook from the get go? I cannot imagine any reason to continue with that teacher.

 

A teacher who is not aware of the 'tricky' points in Pinyin? Same as above.

 

By the way, I have had run-ins with Chinese teachers at my university. They do NOT approve of my teaching methods. (There are a numbers of examples, and these could fill up a whole different thread.) But I always stick to my guns, and you need to stick to your guns too.

 

Please remember that there is a LOT of competition out there between Chinese teachers. It is a buyer's market. You are the buyer. Be very selective.