Coronavirus - those in China, and general discussion

[ChTTay]

7 hours ago, mungouk said:

According to this update today from the UK Foreign Office, they're now expecting arrivals to self-isolate regardless of where they came from

I meant there is uncertainty over who will be taken to the exhibition Center upon arrival. Not who needs to quarantine at home. There’s no doubt everyone must do the quarantine. 
 

As it is, the announcement mentioned all arrivals but I know someone called the airport and they told them high risk pax only. 

[ChTTay]

6 hours ago, Ruben von Zwack said:

 

I found a dozen face masks in the cupboard that I had bought a while ago. Can you use them multiple times? I'm not sure whether I should use them now, or save them for when things get really tense.

 

Depends on the type of mask. Surgical masks are one use. The 3M N95 type are multiple use unless they’re visibly soiled. There’s still a limit.

 

Masks do expire apparently. I saw some news article about a Canadian stockpile of expired masks. Not sure how that actually affects them though. 

[Dawei3]

9 hours ago, Ruben von Zwack said:

found a dozen face masks in the cupboard that I had bought a while ago. Can you use them multiple times?

Yes.  The Centers for Disease Control (which USED to be very capable, i.e., before Trump) discusses that N95s can be reused, even in healthcare situations, as long as the mask retains its structure & function.  

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hcwcontrols/recommendedguidanceextuse.html

 

Friends asked if the mask should be "disinfected".  No - whatever you treat it with will likely disrupt its structure & function.  The link above discusses a study in which viruses were applied to masks and the masks trapped 99.8% of applied virus.  Also, viruses don't grow on masks.  However, CDC recommends disinfecting your hands before removing the mask.

 

10 hours ago, Flickserve said:

masterly inactivity that UK is undergoing. 

I wonder who is most inactive, the US or the UK.  The US's minimal rate of testing is a tragedy/crime.  The latest is that insufficient reagent is available for the tests.  

 

 

[Flickserve]

11 hours ago, 889 said:

The virus isn't an excuse to play vandal in the lift.

 
 

In HK, all lift buttons are covered by a clear plastic sheet for ease of cleaning. The sheets are also replaced frequently. A behaviour learnt during the SARS period.

[Flickserve]

1 hour ago, Dawei3 said:

wonder who is most inactive, the US or the UK.  The US's minimal rate of testing is a tragedy/crime.  The latest is that insufficient reagent is available for the tests.  

The response and lack of progress is amazing.

 

 I agree it’s criminal for 1st world healthcare system. 

[889]

"In HK, all lift buttons are covered by a clear plastic sheet for ease of cleaning."

 

A thin sheet of plastic more easily scratched than the buttons, the scratches -- which may not be visible -- then offering sanctuary to the virus. The sheets are wiped with some sort of spray hourly but I have no idea how often they're replaced.

[realmayo]

12 hours ago, Tomsima said:

Every statement on the response to the virus seems to include the words "at the moment", serious lack of preemptive action, how on earth people are still not scared seeing whats happening in italy right now is beyond me…

 

I was thinking much the same, but now I'm starting to think the UK government knows what it's doing, even if what it's doing may be very wrong.

They assume that lots/most people will get the virus sooner or later.  They believe that it would rebound after any kind of lockdown.  Lockdown for 4 months now and you risk a peak at the start of NEXT winter.
And they want a decent cohort of the population to have got through it and acquired immunity.

I don't know - very unclear, they haven't explained their thinking. But if you assume there's nothing you can do to stop most people getting it eventually, then it changes the logic a bit.

 

Personally I'd like to see a lockdown and then use the couple of extra months it might give us to build up to the kind of mobilisation/organisation seen in China/HK/Singapore.

Because even if its spread is inevitable in the UK, reducing its speed of infection must be a good thing, ensuring better hospital care for everyone.

 

 

[ChTTay]

Lots of flights into China being cancelled today from its neighbours. My friend is trying to leave Bali to come back to Beijing. They had a flight via Malaysia then Singapore cancelled due to those countries not allowing flights to China. They then went round asking flight desks for Eva Air, Malaysian Airlines, the Singapore cattier, Cathay and Air Asia. All not flying to China. 
 

If you go on ctrip you can still see some flights but whether they will actually fly looks doubtful.  

[roddy]

@DavyJonesLocker, I was trying to troubleshoot issues with the video you uploaded (wasn't working on some browsers) and it got mangled and had to remove the post. The video and context is here. Apologies - EDIT: Fixed it, with link rather than video. 

 

Would discourage uploading videos, tbh, the software doesn't handle them too well across browsers (it wasn't working on either of the mobile browsers I tried). If it's something valuable and not available elsewhere, go ahead. 

[DavyJonesLocker]

5 minutes ago, roddy said:

@DavyJonesLocker, I was trying to troubleshoot issues with the video you uploaded (wasn't working on some browsers) and it got mangled and had to remove the post. The video and context is here. Apologies.

 

Thanks Roddy, it's doing the rounds on wechat groups these few days , gets a good laugh . I couldn't find it on YouTube

[roddy]

There's some background on UK decisions here. I wonder if the UK knows fewer of its essential workers have the money / family to handle childcare than other countries, and so school closures have more of an impact on hospitals and so on. 

 

Scotland has ( or is in the process of) ending major events, but more to relieve pressure on emergency services than prevent infections, I think. Shops are low or out of pasta, painkillers and the like. Going to be an interesting... spring? Summer? Year?

[Ruben von Zwack]

1 hour ago, realmayo said:

they want a decent cohort of the population to have got through it and acquired immunity.

 

That is the reasoning in Germany, too. I noticed that the international press misquoted Merkel. She did not say that she "fears" that 70% of the population will be infected, but that 70% "will" be infected and will acquire immunity, and then it will somehow go away on its own.
 

At the same time though, doctors and scientists all across Germany are pleading for cities to close bars and clubs, and for the public to take voluntary precautions. So not everyone agrees to the government approach (if you can even call waiting it out an approach), apparently.

[Tomsima]

it appears the uk is going down the let everyone get infected route:

 

"Majority of people in the UK need to get a mild dose of coronavirus for 'herd immunity', chief scientific adviser says"

 

sounds like a massive gamble to me. dammit 2020, two months of isolation, then the govt here is just like, yeah just get infected actually…

[889]

But the theory -- yes, just a theory -- is that while most may eventually get infected, social isolation will flatten out the infection curve, slowing the nonetheless inevitable progress. That'll reduce the stress on medical resources by spreading infections out.

 

Problem is, politically it's very hard for leaders to say, "Basically you're all going to test positive after a year of this." So they pretend social isolation and entry restrictions will stop the disease.

[mungouk]

Regarding "high risk" countries, quarantine requirements etc... I just stumbled across this IATA web page that publishes the arrival/travel requirements from Timatic, the database used by airlines to decide if you can travel.

 

https://www.iatatravelcentre.com/international-travel-document-news/1580226297.htm

 

It seems they're updating it pretty regularly.

 

[Shelley]

They have just cancelled all football in the UK. Not becuase of the large crowds, but becuase of the drain on resources of the ambulance, fire and police. Also several players and management  have tested positive.

[roddy]

Five minute video here of the UK's chief science guy explaining a bit about why some measures aren't being taken yet. Was quite reassuring to see a scientist with a graph.

 

Not sure if I'm thinking about this right, but this approach doesn't bode well for people hoping to get back to China? If the UK is trying to let it slowly play out among the population, while China's determined to keep it out of the population... we'll have quarantines right up to the point we have vaccines? 

 

Edit: also, has anyone else discovered they're an inveterate face-toucher? I can't keep my hands off myself, it seems. 

[Jan Finster]

On 3/11/2020 at 7:14 PM, Dawei3 said:

When this pandemic began, I told friends about the fact that medical masks are designed to protect others from your infection, whereas an N95 is designed to protect you.   However, this credible study from the J. of the Amer Med Assoc suggests these masks provide similar protection in health care situations from the flu:   https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214  (even after reading this, I still would use an N95 if available)  It may be that small droplets are relatively rare and that a medical mask protects you by keeping you from touching yourself and by stopping large droplets.  

 

The whole idea that masks do not work is pretty dubious. While in theory the pores may be too large to filter viruses, most health care workers are told to wear them. If they would not protect them from the virus, the number of infected health care workers would be much higher. So, they probably are doing something.  In the west there is a stigma about wearing masks: https://time.com/5799964/coronavirus-face-mask-asia-us/

[geraldc]

The arguments against school closures in the UK are interesting. 

Kids aren't that badly affected by Coronavirus

If kids don't go to school, the parents can't go to work. This will badly affect the NHS/healthcare providers. 

If kids don't go to school there is more chance they will hang out with their grandparents, increasing the grandparent's risk of getting infected

 

There's an interesting debate raging in the Chinese community in the west. Those born in the West believe the western belief that you don't need masks. Those born in Asia, and who've experienced SARS etc, firmly believe in masks. However there are no masks for sale at all here.

 

All the debate is about "flattening the curve" ie controlling the peak of patients so the NHS is not overwhelmed. Probably not a good time to point out that due to chronic underfunding, the NHS was already overwhelmed before Coronavirus.

 

For the first time in 3 years, the debate in the UK is not dominated by Brexit.

[roddy]

The numbers are terrifying. HALF that 60% figure gives you 20 million infections in the UK. Even if a small fraction of those need hospital care, and even if that peak gets flattened all the way to Christmas... you kind of scratch your head and think it can't happen. 

 

The UK has less than 200,000 hospital beds. And there are already people  in them. Personally I'm ready for the "it'll just go away" crowd to be proved right.