Coronavirus - those in China, and general discussion

[889]

We shouldn't let this NY Times story pass by, because I think it represents the line the Beijing leadership is taking in response to foreign criticism that it's responsible for the world being in crisis. It's basically Obama's "I learned about it reading the newspaper just like you folks" defense.

 

Or more fully, "We tried hard really hard to set up mechanisms to prevent this, but despite our best efforts the people in Wuhan nonetheless managed to hoodwink us. So don't blame us. We're victims, too."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/world/asia/coronavirus-china.html

[StChris]

11 hours ago, Lu said:

It really, really doesn't matter who started it. It doesn't matter in kindergarten and it doesn't matter when it's the presidents of the two major world powers. Both are clearly in the wrong here.

 

No, it really, really, does matter who started it. The Chinese government decided to sneak this in at precisely the moment Western countries were starting to deal with the worse of the virus. While I understand the argument that combating the virus should be number one priority, it also also necessary to not let them get away setting a false narrative like that. They could have just said that an American tourist accidentally passed on a virus while in Wuhan if they wanted to go the xenophobia route, but they decided to go full "the US military may have deliberately planted this" route, which is much more dangerous. 

 

If you were to say Trumps method of counterattacking was a little crude, I accept that, but there is no denying that it was effective - it scared the Chinese government enough to stop their attack dogs from barking anymore at least.

[Meng Lelan]

7 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

Just start wearing them yourself. You can even make them yourself (see my earlier post). The more Caucasian people wear them, the earlier it becomes the norm. I have started wearing them a couple of days ago. Folks either ignore you, give you a wide berth or eye you suspiciously. No hostility. I feel cashiers at the grocery store really appreciated it!

I agree with Jan Finster. At the veterans hospital in Louisiana where I am continuing to work due to my job classification as essential, I myself am wearing one every day at work. Due to frequent in-person interaction with veterans, all cashiers, receptionists, couriers, nurses, and pharmacists are now wearing masks at all times at work. This includes the screeners posted at the main gate. 

[Flickserve]

16 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

I have started wearing them a couple of days ago. 

what made you change to wearing them?

Of note, Austria and Slovakia made it mandatory to wear masks in supermarkets, Czech Republic makes it mandatory outside. 
 

I think I mentioned in this thread earlier those things you noticed about when you wear a mask; people keep away you much better and are more aware about touching each other. E.g. shaking hands. The social element of wearing a mask is very protective at enforcing the two letter distance rule. 
 

I walked around the streets in Hong Kong today in causeway bay.  Not many Caucasians but the few I saw, every single one had a facemask on. Is there a general shift attitudes to wearing masks despite WHO still not recommending them if asymptomatic?
 

I heard doctors in the U.K. until last week were actively discouraged from using facemasks in non-covid patients because of scaring patients except that it takes time to get the testing done. Bang, that’s extra time to potentially infect a lot people. Now, there’s a figure of 1 in 4 doctors quoted as ill (perhaps this is in severely affected areas) and out of the system. Probably same with nurses though it doesn’t get mentioned in the news. 

[杰.克]

6 hours ago, StChris said:

We need to get the basic facts straight

 

There are plenty of reasons to dislike or oppose Trump, but that shouldn't mean automatically jumping on the side of anyone who is against him, especially the CCP. We need to get the basic facts straight before there is any chance of a productive conversation about this.

 

It not the presidents though is it? Its a president, and a foreign ministry spokesperson. A not insignificant difference

 

This is the definition of getting the facts straight, fella ?

 

I'm not jumping in on any side. This is a factual statement. You need to get the definition of 'basic fact' straight in your head before there is any chance of a productive conversation about this.

[Lu]

6 hours ago, StChris said:

The Chinese government decided to sneak this in at precisely the moment Western countries were starting to deal with the worse of the virus. (...)

 

If you were to say Trumps method of counterattacking was a little crude, I accept that, but there is no denying that it was effective - it scared the Chinese government enough to stop their attack dogs from barking anymore at least.

When I said 'it doesn't matter who started it', I mean that whoever started it, the other person was wrong to react like that, and the person who started was wrong to start doing this. The Chinese attempt at conspiracy theory was evil and false, and Trump calling it 'the Chinese virus' was needlessly fanning racist flames, at the expense of both regular Chinese people and other Asians and Asian-Americans (ie his own citizens).

 

I didn't notice that the Chinese government stopped running the conspiracy theory that the US started it. If so, that is a good result. I still don't agree on the method though, and the result could very well have been different.

[Shelley]

Has the advice about masks changed?

 

Almost since this started I have been told by media, medical and government sources that they don't actually help.

It did seem counterintuitive and mask wearing in the UK is probably about a third or so of the population, this is from what I can see.

 

I have to say it does seem that it will stop fluids being spread about and has the side effect of stopping you touching your mouth and nose, but not your eyes.

 

I have some masks, part of the PPE we have in the workshop, along with boxes of gloves and a few pairs of safety glasses, I could go out in these, but I can't breath through the masks. I wear the gloves though as I think it reminds me not to touch my face and when I get back in my car I can take them off before I get in so my car interior is "clean" 

[Flickserve]

44 minutes ago, Shelley said:

Has the advice about masks changed?

 

I just read about this German city

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-masks/german-city-follows-austria-and-stipulates-face-masks-for-shoppers-idUKKBN21I10K

 

44 minutes ago, Shelley said:

Almost since this started I have been told by media, medical and government sources that they don't actually help.

 

We are told there is no evidence of benefit - but I posted some articles earlier that argue otherwise. On social media, there is a graph of number of cases of COVID in each country from the start. South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore have had very few cases compared to other countries. With the exception of Singapore, those places have had relatively few cases and they have in common a strong wearing of facemasks culture when faced with respiratory disease risk.

 

No evidence of benefit does not mean benefit does not exist.

 

No evidence of symptoms of COVID 19 in a person standing next to you does not mean that person is clear of COVID 19. We have enough evidence of asymptomatic persons testing positive. They also shed viral material. Whether they transmit the disease well I am not standing next to them without a facemask to find out. Facemasks add an extra layer of protection and encourage social distancing.

 

 

[Shelley]

This does confirm my own opinion that even if its not proven, it can't hurt.

 

I also wondered if the lack of stock was one reason they didn't want to start a run on them, panic buying was bad enough with the famous loo roll debacle.

 

 

[889]

Hong Kong, where everyone has been wearing a mask for six weeks, has four deaths so far. In the past ten days, nearly all new cases have been either recent arrivals or related to clusters in the entertainment districts. Only a handful are untraceable cases arising in the community at large.

 

New York State has 1,200 deaths. London, about 470.

 

EDIT: That was a couple of days ago. As of 1 April, there've been about 2,300 deaths in New York State, about 730 in London. While Hong Kong remains at 4.

[Jan Finster]

30 minutes ago, Flickserve said:

No evidence of benefit does not mean benefit does not exist.

 

This is exactly what I am thinking. The scientists in the West do a good job trying to give evidence-based recommendations, but this also limits them if no evidence exists. It is true that viruses are too small to be filtered out completely, but this does not mean masks are useless.

 

They have been recommended from the very beginning for medical staff working with corona patients. If they were useless, why use them at all?

 

As we are learning more, more and more governments now seem to begin recommending them to the general public. Even German´s most famous virologist said, it would be great if everyone wore a mask. He himself wears a mask when he goes shopping.

[mungouk]

The Beijinger reports that a new version of the BJ Health Kit Mini-Program (on WeChat) now allows foreigners to login with their passports.

 

Foreigners Can Finally Use the Beijing Health Kit App

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/J45ha84gQyGl0f5MG0x6-A

[Flickserve]

47 minutes ago, Shelley said:

This does confirm my own opinion that even if its not proven, it can't hurt.

Exactly. There can’t be that big a disadvantage to wearing them that would overcome the benefits. 
 

Cases of the flu this year in Hong Kong have  gone down a lot. 

[Lu]

21 hours ago, Flickserve said:

On social media, there is a graph of number of cases of COVID in each country from the start. South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore have had very few cases compared to other countries.

I've seen that graph on social media, and many of the reactions were 'correlation does not equal causation'. South Korea and Taiwan used lots of tracking infected people's movements and isolating any people they had been in contact with. Not sure about Hong Kong. Apparently Singapore actually discouraged mask use. And we all know people in China are quick to use masks too, but their results didn't fit into the narrative of that graph.

 

I'm not saying masks don't help though. From what I've understood, masks can help an infected people prevent infecting others, because droplets from coughing don't fly as far. No downside or side effects to the wearer. However, many countries (including the Netherlands) have a mask shortage at the moment, and in that case all available masks should go to hospitals and other medical facilities.

[Flickserve]

1 hour ago, Lu said:

Apparently Singapore actually discouraged mask use.

 

yup. mentioned that

 

1 hour ago, Lu said:

And we all know people in China are quick to use masks too, but their results didn't fit into the narrative of that graph.

 

Once you go past a threshold density of cases, it becomes difficult to control. Then a protective level of hazmat suits are required because there is just so much viral material around.

 

1 hour ago, Lu said:

From what I've understood, masks can help an infected people prevent infecting others, because droplets from coughing don't fly as far. No downside or side effects to the wearer.

 

Yes. Infected and asymptomatic persons are the unknown spreaders - something that HK public knew from an early stage.

 

Masks are an additional layer of protection. We know it's not 100% (or even 95%) but if we can get an extra layer of protection which is easy as covering the mouth with a cloth to reduce airflow and distance of droplets, then that is only good. People are making home made cloth masks which are a good idea.

 

CDC are changing their stance. 12.24 onwards

 

https://youtu.be/QqERCHfeJSc?t=744

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mungouk]

5 hours ago, Flickserve said:

6 hours ago, Lu said:

Apparently Singapore actually discouraged mask use.

 

yup. mentioned that

 

Was this an official thing?  I only remember seeing a leak from a recording of a minister taking the piss out of Hong Kongers.

 

[Flickserve]

2 hours ago, mungouk said:

Was this an official thing? 

 

No need for general public to wear masks if they are well

 

https://youtu.be/PaZuucI2g-s

 

 

Masks should only be worn by the sick

 

https://youtu.be/Ed6uDDHzYnU

[mungouk]

OK, I see.  Subtle difference between "discouraging mask use" and "suggesting mask use only when sick", perhaps.

 

https://www.gov.sg/article/masking-up-how-and-when-you-should-do-it

 

 

[889]

Masks are in limited supply in many places.

 

So not encouraging mask use may simply be a way of allocating scarce resources to where they're most useful.

 

Indeed, in some places masks are so scarce that telling everyone to wear them would be like encouraging everyone to get a vaccine shot.

[dtcamero]

as much as that may be the concern, it isn’t an excuse for lying to the public, saying masks aren’t effective at preventing transmission. 

i can’t wait to hear the CDC’s eventual apology for this mess...

”sorry for producing such garbage tests, and also you all actually should have been wearing some kind of mask since january”