Shameless slogans promoting Mandarin

[ala]

maybe I'm missing something, but why is Shanghai considered non-mandarin but Sichuan is mandarin? Sichuan has its Sichuan-hua too...

Sichuan-hua is a Mandarin dialect. Shanghainese is a Wu dialect. There are phonology, core vocabulary and grammatical differences that separate Wu from Mandarin dialects, making Wu dialects harder to understand for Mandarin-only speakers.

Putonghua is also a Mandarin dialect. In English when we say Mandarin, we usually refer to Putonghua; but Mandarin does not necessarily mean Putonghua. Mandarin dialects are very diverse as well. On national CCTV, you hear all kinds of different Mandarin dialects (like local Beijing, Hebei, Shandong, Sichuan, Dongbei), but rarely if ever the non-Mandarin Chinese dialects.

[ala]

I hate to disagree (although I admit that I don't really know what I'm talking about). Northern Mandarin dialects' date=' such as Shanxihua, Henanhua, Heilongjianghua...etc, are Mandarin. They are not "standard", however. I think these are two seperate things. Mandarin has certain ways to pronounce words, certain tones that are correct, and certain grammar that is correct. Many of these local dialects don't follow the standardized rules, and are thus "incorrect" according to the definition of what is correct. Nonetheless, I think these dialects, for the most part, still qualify as Mandarin because they are comphrehensible (to Mandarin speakers) with minimal difficulties. Is this a misconception?

But, it's that a bit like defining the correct dialect of Wu, as say, Shaoxinghua (this is just an example). Then all Shanghainese and Suzhouese would be said to have "unstandard" Wu. That would be true, according to that definition.[/quote']

I'm kind of confused.. How are you disagreeing with me? Of course Henanhua, Heilongjianghua are Mandarin; and of course they are not standard (Standard Mandarin is Putonghua). But nevertheless you hear Mandarin dialects all the time on national TV, because they are perceived still as variations (albeit "rural", "tu", non-standard) of Mandarin. Do you ever hear Shanghainese on national TV? Because Shanghainese is not perceived as Mandarin (北方话, 官话)

Wu dialects have standards too. Properly spoken Suzhou-hua and Shanghainese will never be perceived as non-standard or "土".

In China, different Mandarin dialects ("real dialects") are tolerated, but non-Mandarin dialects ("different languages") are highly censored. "Promote Putonghua" campaigns are really just "Promote Mandarin" campaigns. Cantonese has been a huge exception mainly because of Hong Kong and the ability of Guangdong to stay relatively independent in terms of central control.

[atitarev]

I am only reading this but I think this makes sense and other posters have already answered this. Dialects that are close to Mandarin are intelligible, I don't think you can get 100% pure Mandarin, what's the point of broadcasting other dialects, if only their speakers will be able to understand? And you're right, sometimes sometimes learners from other non-Mandarin dialects can get better accents/grammar in Mandarin than native Mandarin speakers. It's like an educated foreigner may speak a better English than a person from Lancashire or Yorkshire, doesn't mean that they (dialect speakers) should be disallowed to broadcast, if it becomes too unintelligible, then subtitles (TV) or translation (radio) could be provided.

I was surprised to see that some Australian programs were broadcast with subtitles in American TV. I, being used to Australian English, often need subtitles when watching American shows/movies.

[Outofin]

Ala, you're really confusing me. Not by what you say but how you say it. As the discussion goes, more new messages are revealed.

From putonghua promotion is shameless, to the promotion in Shanghai is excessive, now you reached a point that "In China, different Mandarin dialects ("real dialects") are tolerated, but non-Mandarin dialects ("different languages") are highly censored. "

I haven't watched Mainland TV for several years. I would suppose there is no dramastic changes. Take Chinese New Year of CCTV as an example, I think the main reason we hear more northern dialects is because 东北 got some distinguished 小品 actors and 天津 has good 曲艺 actors. I seriously doubt there is a secret policy that to "selectively censor" southern dialects. I just can't imagine how they keep the secret and how artists from south could not complain. Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao both come from the south. You need to back your opinion.

Why not just summarize your points completely in the first place? What's your ultimate plan how things should work? Don't mistake me. I don't necessarily not support your ideas.

[ala]

Ala' date=' you're really confusing me. Not by what you say but how you say it. As the discussion goes, more new messages are revealed.

From putonghua promotion is shameless, to the promotion in Shanghai is excessive, now you reached a point that "In China, different Mandarin dialects ("real dialects") are tolerated, but non-Mandarin dialects ("different languages") are highly censored. " [/quote']

I think if you had read my older posts, my stance has been pretty consistent.

I've never been against utilitarian Standard Mandarin promotion.

But I am pretty disgusted by mindnumbing slogans such like "Be a modern Shanghainese, speak Putonghua" billboards featuring celebrities and funded by the state.

And it's fact that Mandarin dialects are more tolerated than non-Mandarin dialects, and like previous posters have mentioned, intelligibility is probably the key reason.

So I don't really know what you are confused about.

I haven't watched Mainland TV for several years. I would suppose there is no dramastic changes. Take Chinese New Year of CCTV as an example, I think the main reason we hear more northern dialects is because 东北 got some distinguished 小品 actor and 天津 has good 曲艺 actor. I seriously doubt there is a secret policy that to "censor" southern dialects. I just can't imagine how they keep the secret and how artists from south could not complain.

And that's exactly the problem. Most of the skits and shows that are shown on CCTV's Chinese New Year events are Northern Chinese cultural venues; of course they will have distinguished performers from Northern China. Has there ever been Suzhou Pingtan 苏州评弹? or comic Shanghainese Huaji 上海滑稽 skits on CCTV? No. Would it be so hard to use subtitles?

The truth is southern dialects and southern cultural venues ARE censored, especially in national events. It's not a secret policy, it's widely known. There are editorials in Shanghai papers every year condemning this.

[Ferno]

Sichuan-hua is a Mandarin dialect. Shanghainese is a Wu dialect. There are phonology, core vocabulary and grammatical differences that separate Wu from Mandarin dialects, making Wu dialects harder to understand for Mandarin-only speakers.

that's strange... i talked to someone online from Sichuan and he seemed to seperate sichuanhua from mandarin...

so what do people use in Sichuan? If Mandarin is a chinese language, and sichuanhua is a dialect within Mandarin, would it be like someone switching between the type of English spoken in Scotland and American English?

[Quest]

i talked to someone online from Sichuan and he seemed to seperate sichuanhua from mandarin...

In China, every place has its own "hua", most people don't think of their own dialect as being a subdialect within a larger dialect. For example, in Guangzhou, people think they speak Guangzhouhua, and they never think of other surrounding Cantonese dialects as being the same or within the same group. The concept of a larger Cantonese dialect group is nonexistent. To them another Cantonese dialect is just as different as mandarin, it is another "hua".

[ala]

Below is a comment from a Shanghainese resident:

宋庆龄这些人明明讲吴语的，可电视上全讲普通话，搞得好像自古以来高素质的人全讲普通话似的，伟人中讲北京话的自古以来就没有一个，结果现在，好像吴语是小市民讲的似的，反倒他们成汉族正宗了

Roughly translated:

"People like Song Qingling actually spoke Wu Chinese (吴语), but on television today they are all speaking Putonghua, as if since ancient times all famous Chinese people of elite status spoke Putonghua. Actually since ancient times, there isn't a single notable Chinese figure who spoke Beijinghua; but now it's as if Wu Chinese is a little villager's speech, and only Putonghua speakers are the real Han ethnicity."

(background: Song Qingling in all public meetings spoke in Shanghainese/Old Suzhou-hua).

[ala]

so what do people use in Sichuan? If Mandarin is a chinese language, and sichuanhua is a dialect within Mandarin, would it be like someone switching between the type of English spoken in Scotland and American English?

Yup. About the same too in terms of intelligibility.

[Outofin]

Ala, this is the first time I hear the “widely known policy”. I don’t challenge your statement but will leave it to everyone for their own judgment and conclusion. But since you ask, I think CCTV does need to have something like 评弹. The festival is for everyone’s happiness.

Mao Zedong spoke Mandarin in a strong Hunan accent. I believe he didn’t speak in Hunan dialect was because most Chinese wouldn’t understand him. And I believe that was the same reason Song Qingling spoke Mandarin. And that's the exact reason why I speak Mandarin. Is Hunan dialect close enough to Wu dialect?

Regarding the slogan, it’s obviously not well designed. Don’t take it too literally. If it does bother you so much, I can play an analysis game. “I’m a Chinese kid, I speak mandarin” doesn’t question your identity, because the sentence doesn’t has a strict logical relation within it. It’s like “I’m a Chinese, I like rice”. This statement doesn’t put those who don't eat rice in a non-Chinese situation.

I really hope I could assure you on this matter.

[ala]

And I believe that was the same reason Song Qingling spoke Mandarin.

You misread. Song Qingling didn't speak Mandarin in most of her public appearances. She spoke Wu. But reenacted television shows and films with her in it would never be speaking Wu. As result people just like you all think our nation's notable figures all spoke Mandarin. That's the point of the commentor's quote.

Even during the opening ceremony of the PRC （开国大典）, Song Qingling spoke completely in flawless Shanghainese.

[Ian_Lee]

Actually some of the slogans make sense:

（1）国家推广全国通用的普通话

（2）积极普及民族共同语，增强中华民族凝聚力

（6）普及普通话，四海是一家

（10）推广普通话，公务员要带头

However, in terms of love relationship:

（14）普通话：情感的纽带，沟通的桥梁

（20）普通话，使你我靠得更近

（25）心相印，语相通，共奔小康乐融融

I don't see how Putonghua can enhance man-woman relationship. But frankly I admit it is less awkward to utter "I Love You" in Mandarin than in Cantonese.

But the foolowing slogans which imply that only Putonghua is "civilized" language while others are not is really repulsive:

（15）说普通话，迎四方宾客；用文明语，送一片真情

（23）普通话同青春携手，文明语和时尚并肩

[atitarev]

In Switzerland, the German speaking part of the country speak a different dialect - Schwyzertütsch (Schweizerdeutsch - Swiss German). This dialect has no written form - if it's ever written, it's for entertainment. People learn and study German at schools and unis, it's the one of the official languages of Switzerland. It is the link between Swiss Germans, Germans from Germany and Austrians. Swiss Germans are not trying to make their dialect official because they understand that only one version could become official.

IMHO, it's the "fate" of dialect speakers or speakers of a minority language if you wish, whose dialect is not chosen as the main one. You can maintain your language - dialect but you have to agree that the official language will be dominating in all spheres of life, including TV shows. Most of the time language of a nation is its identity, it's different with Chinese where dialects are strong for historical reasons. It is a good idea if all Chinese are fluent in one common dialect/language (not only written but spoken), even if they use other dialects. Slogans are made by people and people make mistakes.

[Ncao]

I'm not against the promotion of Mandarin,but I'm against the thinking of Mandarin as the superior of Chinese languages.

[atitarev]

New slogan for promoting Mandarin:

"Mandarin is inferior, unimportant, ugly language but you need to learn it and be fluent in it, otherwise Chinese won't be able to speak to each other!"

EDIT:

In really small letters below:

(Use it only when you have to, otherwise you forget your dialect)

EDIT 2:

It's a joke of course, in case you read only this post. I just can't imagine how you can promote a language without saying positive things about it.

[Ferno]

But frankly I admit it is less awkward to utter "I Love You" in Mandarin than in Cantonese.

huh? what do you mean?

[geraldc]

Some Cantonese (like my family) use 爱 / oi, in day to day language to mean want, rather than love, so it does kind of remove the romance of the word...

[Ferno]

oh... isn't that similar to English over-use of the word "love" for "like strongly" (I love TV)?

does that mean canto songs dont have so much "wo ai ni" as mandarin pop? (it would be something like "o oi lei" right?)

[Quest]

爱(ngoi) means 要 in colloquial Cantonese, 钟意 is love. 我好钟意你 is a more natural and sincere way to say I love you. Saying 我爱你 (ngo ngoi lei) in Cantonese sounds like you are reading that line off a book.

[Ferno]

oh

and btw, isn't the "ng" initial dropped in coloquial cantonese?