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龸 Vs ⺍ on top of 冖


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Sreeni

The top horns in 学堂〔學﹣〕xuétáng College are slightly different. Middle horn is straight in táng and inclined in xué. How it differs in meaning?

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Dlezcano

because the top part of 堂 actually comes from 尚 which gives the sound, while the top part of 学 is a simplification of more complex forms.

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mungouk

@Sreeni if you're interested in this kind of thing, I can highly recommend the Outlier Essentials add-on for Pleco, which gives etymology, info on sound vs meaning components, and in some cases examples of the ancient forms and how they evolved.

 

I find it really useful when coming across a new character, to understand what the pronunciation clues are (if any), and what the meaning clues are.

Here's the entry for 堂 (click to enlarge it):

 

IMG_9E0D34423473-1.thumb.jpeg.d7e6e0974ce1cc6d9c4cdd4bb2149ac2.jpeg

 

 

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Sreeni

@mungouk @OneEye thanks. Had some confusion on which outlier product to go for. Ordered expert level Pleco dictionary add on now. Installed. 
 

I think Outlier has done great work and hope to learn meanings in a right way and fast and hope will not forgot ever.

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Sreeni
On 2/10/2021 at 8:58 AM, Dlezcano said:

because the top part of 堂 actually comes from 尚 which gives the sound,

 

@OneEye, @mungouk, @Dlezcano Sound component means Sound + meaning you mean?  Otherwise how just earth alone becomes Hall?

 

The original meaning of chang = to go up into a hall, as per oneEye = outlier as below in quotes.

 

“Still, yet” is a sound loan meaning for 尚. In other words, it’s not related to the original meaning of 尚, “to go up into a hall.”

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Sreeni
On 2/11/2021 at 5:16 PM, OneEye said:

that "earth" (semantic) plus [zh/ch/sh/d/t]ang (sound) equals "táng, which means hall."


is sound tang taken from tu + Chang, (bold letters)? 
does zh/ch/Sh/d/t sounds haveany meaning?

 

龸 this symbol has entry in Pleco but does not have any meaning. any details on origin/etymology/details about this symbol ?

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OneEye
28 minutes ago, Sreeni said:

is sound tang taken from tu + Chang, (bold letters)?

No, that's not how it works.

 

only contributes meaning in 堂. 尚 (shàng, by the way, not "chang") only contributes sound in 堂. 

 

But these characters were created thousands of years ago. The pronunciation of the language has changed significantly since then, so the sounds in a sound series (a group of characters containing the same sound component) aren't always as close as they once were. In the case of 尚, characters containing it as a sound component are pronounced dang, tang, zhang, chang, and shang in modern Mandarin:

 

* 當 dāng
* 黨 dǎng
* 堂 táng
* 躺 tǎng
* 倘 tǎng
* 趟 tàng
* 棠 táng

* 常 cháng
* 嘗 cháng
* 敞 chǎng
* 掌 zhǎng
* 裳 shang
* 賞 shǎng

 

That's why I said "[zh/ch/sh/d/t]ang". That's the range of pronunciations that can be expressed by 尚 as a sound component.

 

37 minutes ago, Sreeni said:

龸 this symbol has entry in Pleco but does not have any meaning. any details on origin/etymology/details about this symbol ?

 

That's because it's just a (non-functional) part of characters containing 尚. It doesn't have a meaning. Its origin is explained in the post above.

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Sreeni

General question: The spoken language was initially originated?
 

Or spoken and written language originated at same time?

 

two or more words with same pronunciation but multiple meanings? Why they can not pronounce differently ?

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OneEye

The spoken language came first. This is the case with all writing systems—you can't have writing if there's no language to write down.

 

2 hours ago, Sreeni said:

two or more words with same pronunciation but multiple meanings? Why they can not pronounce differently ?

This is called "homophones" and it's a phenomenon that exists in every language. Chinese has a lot of homophone characters (think "syllables"), but most words are multiple syllables, so this isn't an issue.

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