The 2023 Aims and Objectives

[realmayo]

@sanchuan what I was trying to suggest was that not living in China or using Chinese there have been several periods of several years when I've had zero exposure to the written language. When I've restarted it's been easy to use SRS to quickly re-remember how to write 3000 characters again. But I've always wondered what the point was of putting those back into my memory, because even while continuing to read and type Chinese I would start forgetting some of them unless I kept using SRS. If Chinese people are content to forget how to write certain characters, why should I bother! That's part of the puzzle, and related to the fact that you have to make a special, unnatural effort to write lots of characters on a regular basis if living a normal Chinese life.

 

I did enjoy memorising how to write 小篆 a year or two ago, something again that was easy thanks to SRS. But I wouldn't keep that deck going now either.

[realmayo]

On 2/16/2023 at 5:40 PM, sanchuan said:

So mine was a larger point about the benefits of handwriting generally

 

Yes, but I personally feel that those advantages come with disadvantages too. You're right that the 'grasping' of a tool in the hand and the 'grasping' of words as a language tool seem to be closely related in the left hemisphere. But the right hemisphere is hugely important for all the 'fun' stuff of language: jokes, metaphor, registering tone of voice, etc etc.

 

So my current pet theory is that the focus on (and joy/sense of achievement of) grasping and mastering Chinese characters might encourage too much of a left-hemisphere approach to the language, i.e. a focus on lists, checking things off, testing oneself, solitariness, perfectionism, focus on dictionaries, definitions, shutting away the unpredictable counterpart-contingent nature of the language 'until I've really mastered it first'.

 

But we communicate with far more than words, written or spoken: native speakers are super alert to how a few subtle changes to the sounds (tone of voice) of a spoken sentence can radically alter its meaning: for example, was the person being sarcastic or encouraging?

 

And communicating through sound changes - which is presumably how humans communicated all the way up until we developed language in the left hemisphere of the brain - is something the right hemisphere is much better at, as well as simply being far better at understanding other people, their motivations and their emotions.

 

So when it comes to communicating in any language, both parts of the brain bring something important to the party. And I'm curious about whether the fun and funky Chinese writing system can push some people (OK, maybe me a couple of times in the past!) into a more left-hemisphere driven approach to study than they would otherwise have chosen.

 

(In fact ironically, given Chinese is a tonal language, music is primarily right-hemisphere. But then again, words are arguably not the most important thing in spoken language.)

[sanchuan]

@realmayo I admit I haven't got round to his latest tome, which I'm glad to hear is making a splash, but I've long been familiar with McGilchrist (who I'm rudely presuming is informing your comment) as well as the much bigger shoulders below him. I find arguments of that ilk generally persuasive, actually; they're consistent with my understanding of things and value system. So what I'm saying is you're preaching to the choir here about language in general and the value of organic learning and spontaneous conversation (much as we do here on these forums).

 

The very first time I engaged here, if memory serves, was precisely to argue against the madness of srs-ing words as a form of compulsive collection to nowhere. Imagine my consternation when I first landed on all the word-counting posts here, all about "using" novels or tv only as a way to "collect" words that can arbitrarily be classed as "known" in order to "level up" to the "next" arbitrary "goal" so as to presumably "arrive" at a point where one is finally "ready" for a first unalloyed and authentic and complete encounter with the language in the very near, but never here, future - but only after every effort has been officially certified, recorded and validated - after which it's probably time to switch to another language or another adventure, if time on earth allows, because the point of it all... is just having a dragon to chase. (Apologies for the crude, sake-of-the-argument caricature.)

 

So, yes, I do see the point you're making. But! Much as I understand your side of the argument, I really don't see the harm in the new generations needing to drag the framework of managerialism into the privacy of their own language learning. Oh well... I do see the harm and, no, it's never just a framework... But the point I'd like to make is: what you see here is only short online vignettes; you're not really privy to the way each of us relates to what we do, so ultimately it's wrong for us to paint quick caricatures and get judging those. 

 

Judging learning methods in  objective and comparative terms, however, is something I do feel we're entitled, indeed invited, to do here. And I'm glad this discussion inspired @Woodford to hold on to his writing deck after all. As I stressed in my earlier post, the reason why I'd make a nuke exception for a hanzi deck - provided continued literacy is a personal goal - is precisely because such a deck would lend itself less well to compulsive, arbitrary and open-ended perfectionism, it being a fixed set (and one you can pare down further to infrequent-but-useful characters only, as @Tomsima seems to have done).

 

Your specific frustration/puzzle about srs-ing written characters on an ad-hoc and temporary basis, only to move on and forget a lot of them, is left-hemisphere talk. It's perfectly fine to do something "natives don't do". It's also fine to embrace the forgetfulness and just appreciate what remains and see the forgotten as the new. And it's even fine to do all that with a dog-eared old deck.

 

After all, you can find the new in the old and the familiar, too.

 

But only if you learn to forget!

 

Only if you accept the value of forgetting, and learn how to forget well.

 

A hanzi writing deck will give you a lifetime's practice for that. Forgetting is not a frustrating bug there. It's a feature. It's there to remind you that there's no arrival, however seemingly short and familiar the running track.

[Tomsima]

学而时习之 imo SRS is surely as native as it gets!

[realmayo]

On 2/16/2023 at 11:23 PM, sanchuan said:

I've long been familiar with McGilchrist

I haven't got far through his new book, because the first third appears to be an extended recap of the wonderful Master/Emissary. For language as music, Diana Deutsch is good, the Swedish guy Olle Kallje is interesting on prosody, and I thought the pop-science book 'The Singing Neanderthals' was good too.

 

I personally think it would be strange to learn how to read Chinese without learning how to write it. As for memorising characters, it's a bit like memorising the capital cities of the world: not all of them are worth remembering all the time, but there's no harm in it - except that maybe the nature of the Chinese writing system might push one or two people into a more left-brain way of studying the whole language than they'd otherwise prefer.

 

I'm not aware of anyone on these forums apart from myself to whom that might apply, but I thought it was interesting enough to throw out there.

 

I suppose another question might be: if you knew you'd never need to write another character until 2032, would you keep SRS-ing characters for the next 9 years? Or would you wait until 2031 to start relearning (assuming one year would be enough to rememorise)?

[sanchuan]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:38 PM, realmayo said:

if you knew you'd never need to write another character until 2032, would you keep SRS-ing characters for the next 9 years?

Yes. That's what I meant by "learning to forget": forgetting, half-forgetting or re-forgetting a character, even 9 times over for the next 9 years, beats forgetting it now and re-learning it from (near) scratch in 9 years' time. Reforgetting beats relearning, in my book. And if a deck is mature, it may well take less time to review it over 9 years than to relearn it over 1 year.

 

However, the hypothetical necessity you contrived, even if for the sake of the argument, is a dangerous pitfall. A contrived necessity is no more of a necessity than any other contrived necessity. They're all contrived, so they're all unnecessary in actual, real life. There's almost always a way around if push comes to shove.

 

The fact that one might desire to cultivate a long-term skill is typically just that: a desire driven by intrinsic motivation, rather than extrinsic usefulness. If the desire for the skill isn't there, any perceived or contrived "usefulness" just doesn't cut it. Usefulness is always, by definition, circumstantial, and it doesn't make sense to prepare in advance (and for years!) for circumstances that might or might not happen.

 

So my answer would be different were I to lack any intrinsic desire to keep myself fully literate in Chinese and were I to expect to have to handwrite in 9 years' time under some form of duress. In that case, I would also just cram it last minute, no question about it.

[Woodford]

On 2/16/2023 at 5:23 PM, sanchuan said:

The very first time I engaged here, if memory serves, was precisely to argue against the madness of srs-ing words as a form of compulsive collection to nowhere. Imagine my consternation when I first landed on all the word-counting posts here, all about "using" novels or tv only as a way to "collect" words that can arbitrarily be classed as "known" in order to "level up" to the "next" arbitrary "goal" so as to presumably "arrive" at a point where one is finally "ready" for a first unalloyed and authentic and complete encounter with the language in the very near, but never here, future - but only after every effort has been officially certified, recorded and validated - after which it's probably time to switch to another language or another adventure, if time on earth allows, because the point of it all... is just having a dragon to chase. (Apologies for the crude, sake-of-the-argument caricature.)

Brutal and yet true! It’s described me all too often. And probably for those of us who fall into those traps, it can reflect a broader life orientation that goes beyond just language learning. It brings up existential questions, like, “What do I actually want? What’s actually motivating me? What is my goal? What am I willing to do to make things happen? Is this activity taking priority over things that are actually more important,” etc.?

 

Admittedly, chasing the dragon has been really fun, but now (and not some elusive time in the near future, as you noted), I have to start *riding* the dragon, so to speak!

 

 

[sanchuan]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:38 PM, realmayo said:

As for memorising characters, it's a bit like memorising the capital cities of the world: not all of them are worth remembering all the time, but there's no harm in it

I think I share the spirit of what you meant there: there's neither usefulness nor harm in it. 

 

But there is something. Your comparison with capital cities is not quite apt (unless you're a pilot in your daily life). Recalling characters by their strokes and components is more akin to knowing an oft-quoted poem by heart, your city layout by memory, your friends by face. It's something you make part of your world, whether for a time or for a lifetime. 

 

And if you encounter the Chinese language on a regular basis, that kind of familiarity pays for itself there and then. But is it "useful"? Is it "necessary"? No. Not in absolute terms, anyway. 

[Jan Finster]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:12 AM, sanchuan said:

think I share the spirit of what you meant there: there's neither usefulness nor harm in it. 

 

I would not be so sure about it. Consider the opportunity costs! What else could you do with your time (related to Chinese or not) that you are not doing because of it.

[sanchuan]

Think of the opportunity costs of contributing to this forum, meeting a friend or indeed studying Chinese in the first place. Do they make you break into a cold sweat of productivity anxiety? I hope not. If you value something, the opportunity costs will be comfortably lower than the benefits of obtaining it.

 

Rational cost-benefit analysis, like all "usefulness" analysis, is personal and circumstantial: reviewing hanzi for an hour a day would be unreasonably costly for us now, but might not be for a beginner. By all means, let's be rational - but not dogmatic.

 

The fashion today is to turn suddenly proscriptive when it comes to writing skills. My opinion is that, if you're already determined to pay your time to learn a language like Chinese, then there's almost always going to be a cost-effective way to integrate writing skills into your practice, whatever your stage of learning. 

[Jan Finster]

On 2/18/2023 at 1:47 PM, sanchuan said:

The fashion today is to turn suddenly proscriptive when it comes to writing skills

 

Honestly, I do not care how other people spend their time. 

 

On 2/18/2023 at 1:47 PM, sanchuan said:

Think of the opportunity costs of contributing to this forum, meeting a friend or indeed studying Chinese in the first place. Do they make you break into a cold sweat of productivity anxiety?

 The time I would have to invest over the quoted 9 years would be considerable. I can imagine I could learn 1-2 other foreign languages instead of learning such a perishable skill.  You are right, if people enjoy it and still have enough time to do all the other things they enjoy, then they should, be all means, go for it.

 

[realmayo]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:57 PM, sanchuan said:

a desire driven by intrinsic motivation, rather than extrinsic usefulness

Understood - now I see where we differ: for me writing characters is a craft instead of a vocation, a means rather than an end.

 

On 2/18/2023 at 9:12 AM, sanchuan said:

Recalling characters by their strokes and components is more akin to knowing an oft-quoted poem by heart

Again, you have a real fondness for characters which explains the direction this discussion has taken.

 

Incidentally, my personal experience has been, that if I'm basically not reading Chinese characters for a few years, then maintaining an Anki deck for writing characters over those few years is a horrible experience: I forget them way too frequently.

[abcdefg]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:47 AM, sanchuan said:

The fashion today is to turn suddenly proscriptive when it comes to writing skills.

 

You guys are light years ahead of me, both in your ambition and your accomplishments. I compliment you. The one writing skill I assiduously maintained when living in China was the freehand writing of my Chinese name and my Kunming address. 

 

Before a trip to the 邮局 post office to mail a package of tea or such to my family or a friend back in the US, I would go into a frenzy of focused calligraphy practice, using one of the small elementary school exercise booklets ruled into squares. I would write my return address (my Kunming address) over and over, until it was fluid and even had some style. Proper stroke order, proper slope, proper proportions between all parts of every word. 

 

I wanted to be able to "dash it off" without a second thought when I was in line at the post office, pressing down hard so as to make 5 carbon copies, with 6 or 8 locals lined up behind me waiting their turn and the postal clerk carefully watching to see if I did it right. Had to write it on the China Post shipping form and also directly on the box. When sending 2 or 3 parcels, such as before Christmas, this was a good deal of handwriting.

 

It was a point of pride; I didn't want to loose face by stumbling or having to look up any characters. I wanted to pull it off with aplomb. I wanted to pretend I was Mao Zedong 毛泽东 or Du Fu 杜甫 or Li Bai 李白 inscribing a priceless poem.  

[Tomsima]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:08 PM, abcdefg said:

It was a point of pride; I didn't want to loose face by stumbling or having to look up any characters. I wanted to pull it off with aplomb. I wanted to pretend I was Mao Zedong 毛泽东 or Du Fu 杜甫 or Li Bai 李白 inscribing a priceless poem. 

 

Absolutely love this, rings true for me too. The same as when all your tones are flowing and you can hear it just sounds right, writing a line of characters and feeling like you're channeling 王義之 is one of the great joys of learning Chinese for me!

[realmayo]

I'll add that being told my Chinese characters looked like they were written by a typical uncultured adult, as opposed to a typical schoolchild, was a similar moment of immense pride! I would of course be way prouder to write like a cultured adult.

[Moshen]

Quote

write like a cultured adult.

 

The last time I was in China with my husband, he handwrote a thank-you note for someone at a hotel who had helped us get some hard-to-get tickets.  When we left, my husband said to me, "Did you see the way the hotel clerks looked at me?"  No, I hadn't noticed.  "They could tell, instantly, from my handwriting that I was educated."  (He wasn't saying this to brag but rather to clue me in on something that I was completely clueless about.)

 

In the West we have a concept that handwriting reveals personality, but it's not common for people to look at someone's handwriting and know that they're well-educated.

 

 

[imron]

On 2/19/2023 at 2:08 AM, abcdefg said:

aplomb. I wanted to pretend I was Mao Zedong 毛泽东 or Du Fu 杜甫 or Li Bai 李白 inscribing a priceless poem

Or 胡不字

[abcdefg]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:03 PM, imron said:

Or 胡不字

 

Quite a guy! I wonder if Da Shan himself has good handwriting. Would imagine so.

[sanchuan]

Funny and wholesome (you could see the punchline coming a mile away, but that's the fun of it). Thanks for the link, I enjoyed it.

 

The way Dashan mimes calligraphy in the video suggests he may have a decent hand himself. As a public figure in China, and a professional wordsmith at that, odds are he's under more pressure than most about such shibboleths. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a tiny biographical element in his 胡不字 story.

[malazann]

I'm lucky enough to get the opportunity to go to Taiwan next month for ~3 months (remote work), and have been neglecting my mandarin so it's great timing. I am currently thinking about any preparations I need to make (lanaguage-wise), besides the obvious traditional characters. 

My expectatioons are:

- Lots of speaking/listening practice. It will be mostly with strangers as one-off convos or acquaintances. Often transactional.
- I'll become 100% fluent in my boilerplate self-introductions. Reasonably fluent with small talk. "how's the weather", "what do you do", "down with the CCP" etc
- Have many unsatisfying interactions, due to my poor listening or speaking(tones). Especially with old people

3 months is not a super long time, so I am not sure what goals to set. But I'll try to find opportunities for longer conversations, be "extroverted" and take full advantage of the environment. 

If anyone has any tips/advice for me, please feel free to share them.

(P.S I'll be looking to move cities every few weeks, so am also open to suggestions on cities to stop by)