I said it just like pimsleur and was corrected by native (taiwanese?)

[webmagnets]

This is my first week of actually trying to learn chinese. I have been considering it and reading about if for a few months. I now how to learn a language because I learned spanish.

I tried my out my chinese on a few different people and they understood. This time I was corrected. I think she was from Taiwan because she referred to chinese as gouyu or something like that.

I said in english, I learned some chinese, yee1diar3 (this is how I pronounced it, not correct pinyin). She said I should say yee dian (don't remember the tones)

I also said "ni hui shuo putongua" and she said "shwu" instead of "shuo"

Should I listen to her or believe pimsleur?

If it is just a different way of pronouncing it, why did she correct me instead of just assuming I was speaking a different way?

[necroflux]

Hehe, well what you are learning with the Pimsleur system is more of a mainland China style of speech. Neither or "correct" or "incorrect", only perhaps more appropriate for a given region. The lady that corrected you obviously knew what you were trying to say. Imagine if you met a foreigner that talked with a heavy New Jersey accent - you might correct one or two word pronunciations to something more mainstream for your region.

As for "shuo" that should sound pretty much exactly the same from Beijing to Taipei - so I'd say you might want to ignore her advice. A lot of Taiwanese speakers' Mandarin is tainted, i.e. shi sounds like si.. Basically go with Pimsleur on everything, but realize that many of the "r" sounds at the end of words will not apply in various regions outside of northern China.

[self-taught-mba]

Pimsleur is good, but does have a few mistakes/not clear areas.

However pronounciation is fine and considered Mainland China pretty standard.

yi dian is more common outside of China and but her "shwu" thing is wrong. But beware Taiwan has a different system of pinyin. Learn pinyin now, so you can reinforce these pronounciations (Mainland way is best).

Ignore her in this case. (but thank her for correcting you-she may be a valuable resource for other things, you will find that not enough correct your Chinese-be happy for ones like her)

Basically go with Pimsleur on everything, but realize that many of the "r" sounds at the end of words will not apply in various regions outside of northern China.

This is a main difference. Taiwan uses many words without the "r" at the end. This is often the case when the word ends with "n".

why did she correct me instead of just assuming I was speaking a different way?

Hey be happy she did! Many won't.

Congrats on starting your journey. [pop=add effort/jiāyóu]加油[/pop] hover over

[hakkaboy]

Hehe, well what you are learning with the Pimsleur system is more of a mainland China style of speech. Neither or "correct" or "incorrect", only perhaps more appropriate for a given region.

Unlike English, Chinese is a language where the government has decided on and is promoting an official standard pronunciation. The government has decided what is "correct" and "incorrect", or standard and substandard, pronunciations. There is no equivalent to this in Britain or the US.

[Shadowdh]

Unlike English, Chinese is a language where the government has decided on and is promoting an official standard pronunciation. The government has decided what is "correct" and "incorrect", or standard and substandard, pronunciations. There is no equivalent to this in Britain or the US.

You're not wrong there mate... when I first came the UK from New Zealand I had real trouble understanding some "english"... I even had to get one fella to "translate" what another chap was saying even though he was speaking "english"...

I have been told that the pimsleur way of speaking makes me sound very formal... not sure if thats a bad thing or not...

[rockytriton]

from what I've heard, puttin 儿 (er) at the end of things (like yi dianr, huar (flower)) is more of a beijing thing.

[webmagnets]

On this page, it shows it both ways: http://www.xuezhongwen.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddictbasic&wdqb=yi+dian&wdrst=1&go=Search&wddmtm=0

But I can't for the life of me here the "N" on the pimsleur CD. Is it my hearing or should I be listening for something other than an english "N" sound?

[Ferno]

Personally I'm in favor of these added "r"s... Mandarin already has enough "dian"s and "hua"s and "hai"s, adding an "r" final to some of these words reduces some of the homonyms.

[zh-laoshi]

Correct pronunciation of a language should not be solidly based on what you hear on the tapes or CD's that are included with a self-teaching course. These are only good to give you a headstart in pronunciation. You should learn to adjust your speech and hearing patterns to the actual non-professionsal speakers you see and hear around you.

This Taiwanese woman pronounced the word "shuo" as "shwu" which may be a result of her possibly knowing Taiwanese. Much like Mandarin's "dz" sound is sometimes prononced like "c" or "s" in local towns and cities in th southeast parts of China.

In my 28+ years of language learning, and over 20 years of language teaching, I never tell my students to always rely on prefect native pronunciation. Use the local sounds. I remember having to pronounce my English slowly and as clear as possible for my English language students in Ukraine and Russia as they were not used to hearing a native speaker talk at conversation speeds. It took a couple of months, but they got used to it.

I live in Dallas, Texas. The accents here are different from New York City. And if you're from London, listen to a speaker from Kent. We are speaking English, but not Pimsleur style.

My advice: Always use tapes and CDs for the beginning, but lose them as soon as possible. Speak like the native, not paid professionals.

[self-taught-mba]

100th Post!

But I can't for the life of me here the "N" on the pimsleur CD. Is it my hearing or should I be listening for something other than an english "N" sound?

Keep listening for it if you listen really hard . . .

Just kidding, the "r" replaces the "n" so yi dian (ee-dee-en) becomes yi dia(n)r (ee-dee-are)

Leaning pinyin will help, do a search here or check out the links, there are places there.

Here is one: http://www.chinawestexchange.com/Mandarin/pinyin/sounds.htm

Don't worry, it's not hard. Keep going.

[mr.stinky]

you won't hear it, it's a silent "n" in dianr wanr gunr....

damn reflexive!!!

[webmagnets]

I believe you, but I haven't seen that anywhere in writing. I have tons of books and have read many many web sites and nowhere have I seen that.

I am not challenging you, but if you could point me to a source for that information, it would be helpful.

[mr.stinky]

(feel free to challenge...your post was directed at mine, i think...)

conversational chinese 301, beijing language and culture university press, page 15

"retroflexion with -r"

"er is often added to another final to make it retroflexed. the retroflex final is transcribed

by adding r to the original final, e.g. wanr (play), huar (flower)."

you will note that the book (and several others like it) do not explain what a retroflex is,

why it is used, when it is used, or what the rules are. but then, they also don't explain

that the "n" is silent.

one of my instructors explained this is normally used to improve the sound of the word, but can also indicate a small thing, or something that one likes. there are some other

threads on retroflex - one poster said retroflex is the shape of the tongue.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/665-amex-visa-or-mastercard-in-beijing2&highlight=retroflex

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/6941-retroflex-%e5%84%bf&highlight=retroflex

hahaha, i found it!!!

Speak Chinese, Far Eastern Publications, Yale University, page 103

"diminutive suffix -R: the suffix -r is commonly added to a large number of nouns. it is

NOT pronounced as a separate syllable, and usually modifies the primary form of the word

to which it is attached. it is derived from er (child, smallness), but its effect on a word is

not limited to this elemental meaning. compare words with the suffix -r already learned:

hwar, ger, jer, ner, nar?, shaur, syauhar, fangwar, koudar, yidyar, yihwer, yikwar.

Note that many other nouns already learned may take this suffix."

ummm, this seems to be an older version of pinyin spelling.

[roddy]

There's also some relevant stuff waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the archives. this one, and perhaps more usefully here

However

There's also a paragraph explaining when the 'r' sound chokes off the end of the previous syllable and when it doesn't - I'll skip that for now.

Not sure if I still have that book

Roddy

[Zingaro]

When I started down the road of learning Chinese, I used Pimsleur - perfectly all right as a starter. Many times in China, my friends have told me I speak with a Beijing accent - primarily because I tend to use the "儿 (er) " more often than other dialects, which seems to be a Beijing thing.

Not a problem - even those of my friends not from Beijing understand what I'm trying to say.

[adrianlondon]

I avoid the "er" sounds as much as possible, as I'm not good at my "r"s. Suprising, really, as my Dad is Arabic and can be almost Scottish in his rolling r's.

Anyway, I digress as usual. My basic Mandarin has been taught to me by a Taiwanese (a professional tutor at SOAS, and a friend) and we stuck to, for example, "nali" instead of "nar" (which also helped me differentiate between "there" and "where" due to the double third tone thing, as I often struggle hearing the difference between the third and fourth tones).

However, I then tried to chat with a Beijing teenager I met in London and it was all "war war" which, when I worked out he was saying "wan" for play, meant I realised I needed to learn the "r" thing and have started saying "yi diar" instead of "yi dian" now.

[chenpv]

Unlike English, Chinese is a language where the government has decided on and is promoting an official standard pronunciation. The government has decided what is "correct" and "incorrect", or standard and substandard, pronunciations.

Correct pronunciations are decided according to the majorities' preference. So official pronuciations for some characters may change. For example, in the past, 玫瑰 reads mei2gui1, now I believe the official pinyin for it reads mei2gui4.

For foreigners, IMHO, the issue is not what is correct or what is wrong, but how to effectively build up your own pronunciation system, which makes you naturally unique. I dont know other people's opinions. I just find it extremely wierd if every foreigner would speak chinese as if he was born in Beijing.

[anticks]

I heard someone say yi dian dian also. They couldnt explain to me why they said 'dian' twice. The reason "um...you dont have to.... but some people just do"

[self-taught-mba]

I heard someone say yi dian dian also. They couldnt explain to me why they said 'dian' twice.

It is just just for emphasis or sometimes cuteness .Next time someone asks it you speak Putonghua reply with yidian twice and a smile and see the reaction.

Also note even BJ ers will drop the "r" sound when it is said twice.

[Guest realmayo]

a little.

a little bit.