Cantonese in LA

[Ncao]

Given my own "pleasant" experience, I should start listening to Teresa Teng's Cantonese songs to hear how Cantonese sounds in her own voice.

Here's one of Teresa's Cantonese song http://www.66yu.com/mp3/xxsinger/song/h8ab4czk.html

[bhchao]

Ncao, thanks for the link. I will listen to it later.

Quest, not everyone who is a native-speaker of Cantonese is from Guangzhou or Hong Kong (correct me if I'm wrong). And even if they were, it should not be surprising to hear some of these folks say that they find Mandarin more smooth than Cantonese. I know it's a rarity to hear a native-Cantonese speaker say that they prefer Mandarin over Cantonese. My ex-girlfriend was definitely one of those rare instances.

I'm not too familiar with the geography of Guangdong, but my paternal grandfather was from Xinhui, being a native-Cantonese speaker. How close is that to Guangzhou? Is that considered part of the Guangzhou city vicinity?

[Quest]

Quest, not everyone who is a native-speaker of Cantonese is from Guangzhou or Hong Kong (correct me if I'm wrong).

Sub-dialects with different tones, ending particles, pitches and stress patterns can sound completely different, even if their actual pronunciations are close. Standard Cantonese is only spoken in a handful of cities. Would you call all Wu dialects Shanghainese? Just like Shanghainese, Cantonese should refer to the dialect spoken in Canton 广州, which is shared by Hong Kong and Macau and maybe a couple others, but really not by the towns and cities between and around them.

And even if they were, it should not be surprising to hear some of these folks say that they find Mandarin more smooth than Cantonese.

Right, but when people (not just you) assign "waaaaaaaaaa" and "moooooooo" endings to Cantonese, it's really a clear hint that they've mistaken another dialect for Cantonese.

The question "What Cantonese?" also applies to "What Mandarin?" Chen Shui Bian's Mandarin? or Teresa Teng's Mandarin?

[bhchao]

Right, but when people (not just you) assign "waaaaaaaaaa" and "moooooooo" endings to Cantonese, it's really a clear hint that they've mistaken another dialect for Cantonese.

Yep! Thanks for the correction. No offense intended when I made those assignments.

There is no worry of Cantonese fading in the LA area despite Mandarin growing in importance. In areas like Monterey Park, Alhambra, San Gabriel, San Marino, you constantly hear Cantonese being used. Whenever I dined at Sam Woo, I hear diners converse with each other and the waiters in Cantonese.

Cantonese is also widely used in Manhattan's Chinatown and Flushing, Queens. The only difference is that Cantonese is the dominant language in the former, while Mandarin is the predominant language in Flushing; because of all the immigrants from Taiwan and mainland China. Still many business owners in Flushing converse with their customers in Cantonese.

[Quest]

Teresa Teng sang with obvious accents in that song. I know most of you have probably heard enough Cantonese from movies and songs, but just to make the point that many people do speak softly and saying "I love you" or the likes doesn't sound like fighting, I uploaded these colloquial Cantonese sound files (speech excerpts from a few of Twins' earlier songs):

唔知点解，有一啲人，其实我见过佢好多次，亦都介绍过好多次。但係，我都係唔认得佢哋个样，唔记得佢哋个名。又唔知点解，有一啲人，从来都未见过，但係第一次见，已经好似同佢识咗好耐，每一个动作、神情，都好似好亲切咁。我捻，我发梦见过你 （发梦见过你）。

以后我都冇掂过个吉他，至于暑假。

不过，点都好过隔里班个同学啊，告咗假之后就冇返过嚟了。

原来好恨得到一样嘢，係咁辛苦咯。不过有得恨，总好过冇得恨。

今日上咗一堂好开心嘅堂，但係冇几耐就转堂噜。今日上咗一堂好闷嘅堂，好彩冇几耐就转堂嗻。特然之间，捻起Daddy讲过，生活都係一样，开心嘅事，唔会永远都唔完；唔开心嘅事，亦都唔会一世。不如捻下而家，捻下而家，点样可以做得好啲啦。你，陪我呀？

或者，我哋会少咗见面。但係，唔代表我哋会疏远。或者，我哋有时会联络唔到对方。但係唔代表我会唔记得你。我知道，终于有一日，我哋见番面嘅时候，我哋一定会好似以前咁好嘅。记住啊，你话过一定会嚟我嘅毕业礼。你结婚嗰阵，一定要我做伴娘架。挂住你呀，自己保重。自己保重啦。

[bhchao]

Vietnamese is even more abrupt and blunt than Cantonese.

[gato]

There is no worry of Cantonese fading in the LA area despite Mandarin growing in importance. In areas like Monterey Park, Alhambra, San Gabriel, San Marino, you constantly hear Cantonese being used. Whenever I dined at Sam Woo, I hear diners converse with each other and the waiters in Cantonese.

Cantonese is also widely used in Manhattan's Chinatown and Flushing, Queens. The only difference is that Cantonese is the dominant language in the former, while Mandarin is the predominant language in Flushing; because of all the immigrants from Taiwan and mainland China. Still many business owners in Flushing converse with their customers in Cantonese.

But it's the recent immigrants who determine which dialect is used. Few second-generation and almost no third-generation Chinese Americans can speak any Chinese dialect fluently. More and more immigrants to the US are from the mainland outside of Guangzhou. I've heard those from Fujian dominate Manhattan's Chinatown today. Many of them don't speak Cantonese as their native language but have learned Cantonese to work in Chinatown, but their Mandarin is probably just as good if not better than their Cantonese because Mandarin is language of education and the media in the mainland. As these immigrants begin to outnumber the native Cantonese speakers, don't you think Cantonese will increasingly become more of a private lanuguage, used at home with family?

[Ncao]

Vietnamese is even more abrupt and blunt than Cantonese.

There are also dialects in Vietnamese, it's not diverse as Chinese. It only has 3, northern,central , and southern. They're pretty much intelligible to each other,except the central accent it's pretty difficult to understand. I prefer the northern dialect (mellower to me), but alot of southern Vietnamese don't care for it.

[bhchao]

As these immigrants begin to outnumber the native Cantonese speakers, don't you think Cantonese will increasingly become more of a private lanuguage, used at home with family?

That is true only on the assumption that boundaries are fixed, there is little migration across communities, and where there is a high degree of tolerance for heterogeneity. Native-Mandarin speakers dominated Monterey Park during the 80's. Then the Cantonese immigrants came by the waves. A lot of these native-Mandarin speakers left Monterey Park and formed their own communities elsewhere, such as Diamond Bar and parts of Irvine.

In many Chinese communities in LA, there is a high level of homogeneity among people who speak the same dialect. Even though there has been an increase in the number of Mainland Chinese immigrating to the San Gabriel Valley, especially to Arcadia, those native-Mandarin speakers from Mainland did not settle in large numbers in Cantonese-dominated communities like San Marino.

As the article points out, Cantonese speakers do tend to look down on Mandarin. Cantonese are highly cohesive in speaking their own dialect. Are these speakers willing to be crowded out by newer immigrants who don't speak their dialect? I really doubt it. If there is a wave of newer immigrants from Mainland in the future, I predict that Cantonese speakers will simply move to other sections of the city or different communities in southern CA to retain their Cantonese-speaking majority.

I think it will be a different story in NYC. You're probably right that Fujianese dominate Manhattan's Chinatown. If the growing trend of immigrants from mainland China to NYC continues, Cantonese speakers will most likely be in the minority in both Manhattan and Flushing since they have nowhere else to settle in NYC, given the city's fixed boundaries and high population densities. Unless they move to suburban areas in New Jersey or elsewhere.

[gato]

I really doubt it. If there is a wave of newer immigrants from Mainland in the future, I predict that Cantonese speakers will simply move to other sections of the city or different communities in southern CA to retain their Cantonese-speaking majority.

I don't doubt that immigrants who are native Cantonese speakers will continue to speak Cantonese. My point is that they will soon become a minority, at which point the main Chinese public in the public areana in the US will be Mandarin. Let me give you an example. Maybe somewhere around 30% of San Francisco is Chinese American. But most ABCs among them don't speak fluent Chinese of any dialect. Among the immigrants, there's an increasing percentage who don't speak Cantonese fluently. This is especially true among the middle class. The Chinese-American parent organizations who are adovcating an end to the racial integrationist busing programs are partly led by non-Cantonese speakers. In Silicon Valley, Cantonese speakers have been only a small minority for a long time.

Most children of Cantonese-speaking immigrants probably will never speak Cantonese fluently. Most new Chinese immigrants probably won't speak Cantonese fluently. These two trends together, I think, will lead to the replacement of Cantonese by Mandarin as the public dialect among Chinese Americans. Perhaps this is like Yiddish being replaced by Hebrew among Jewish Americans who care about these things. Or Sicilian by Italian.

[Ian_Lee]

Actually Cantonese immigrants are always in the minority if you look at the figures.

Right now annually US allows 20,000 immigrnts from Mainland, 20,000 immigrants from Taiwan and 5,000 immigrants from Hong Kong (before '87 it was 300 and I don't know the figure about Macau).

And while the quotas of Mainland and Taiwan have been over-subscribed, each year HK's quota is under-utilized (That is why HK is eligible to the immigration lottery while Mainland and Taiwan are not).

So all along there have been less Cantonese-speaking immigrants coming into US than Mandarin-speaking immigrants.

(But I tend to disagree that there will be less Mainland immigrants from Guangdong in the future because US immigration system emphasizes on family union which gives strong favor to the people in Guangdong whom have strong US connection.)

But Cantonese is still the working language in Chinatowns despite the fact that Cantonese speakers are in the minority. I guess it is because Old Habits Die Hard.

[smalltownfart]

I was amazed that LA has it's own Cantonese radio station, in London, there's just 1 hr of Cantonese radio a day, and we have a couple of satellite channels, which broadcast in both Mandarin and Cantonese.

If you find that amazing, you will be floored if you ever find yourself in Toronto (or Vancouver).

In Toronto, we have several Chinese stations, you can usually hear get a Chinese program either on FM or AM ( I guess you call it MW in the UK ).

Up here, if you are Chinese, people still assume you speak or understand Cantonese, the kids here are quite comfortable with their "Chinese-ness". According to http://www.fairchildradio.com/tortop.asp, 70% of Chinese families in Canada speak Chinese at home. Aside from having a large Chinese population, I think having strong and popular Chinese programming has something to do with it, Cantonese TV is available on basic cable in the east and northeast parts of the Greater Toronto Area.

There are also 2 more Chinese cable stations (City and the recently added Phoenix).

For non-cable (over the air) TV, there is a multicultural station that broadcasts news programs in Cantonese and Mandarin daily, plus a weekly 2-hour movie and assorted other programs. Chinese radio is also very popular, the calibre of the DJs is surprisingly high.

Even though Cantonese is still prevalent, things are obviously changing, more new families here are from the mainland, so I think it is inevitable that Mandarin will be used more.

For example, if you visited a retirement home, all the Chinese old timers will speak or understand Cantonese. But if you went to a daycare, nearly half of the parents are from Mainland China.

[Ian_Lee]

In the 80s when I visited Vancouver, I already joined a tour to Banff organized by the Radio Station "Voice of Overseas Chinese".

And as far as I know, almost every second generation Chinese Canadian whose parents from Hong Kong speaks as fluent Cantonese as my kids (who are 2nd generation Chinese Americans) do.

Of course, if you don't speak Chinese at home, they won't know Chinese. My policy is whenever they speak English to me, I pretend I don't understand.

Anyway, if you feed them a dozen Stephen Chow's movies, their Cantonese will be para para!

[xiaojiang216]

Does the author know what he's talking about?

Quest, I know exactly how you feel! I once had a "journalist" from my town do a story on the classes I started teaching at the local elementary school. I spelled out the pin yin of certain things she wanted to put in the article, and she totally butchered them! Also, she put words out of my mouth and put them into others, and put some words into my mouth, too! It was a disasterous article! I know how you feel!

[Tiankong]

The Chinese government made Mandarin the official language for a reason, period.

[skylee]

The Chinese government made Mandarin the official language for a reason, period.

Indeed. That would probably help ensure that those foreigners who limit themselves to learning Mandarin only would not be able to fully understand the Chinese as many many of us choose to communicate among ourselves in our dialects (like the lively and very popular Cantonese).