Jump to content
Chinese-forums.com
Learn Chinese in China

ala

Using Hangul to write Shanghainese

Recommended Posts

ala

Korean Hangul is ideal for writing Shanghainese and other Wu dialects, because it was designed with Middle Chinese phonology in mind and the Wu dialects are very consistent/clean in their derivation from Middle Chinese. Also Hangul has 3-way consonants (also a relic of Middle Chinese phonology), the third set (double letters) was originally used for Chinese voiced consonants, although today the third set in Korean is used for "tense consonants".

The one problematic issue is that modern Korean doesn't have initial consonants /v/, /f/, /?/, /gh/, /ng/ anymore (all of which Shanghainese still have), and so these Hangul syllabic block combinations are not supported in computer systems. This however is a computer/technological issue, and not a limit of the Hangul script itself.

Consonants

ㅂ /p/

ㅍ /ph/

ㅃ /b/

ㅁ /m/

ᇦ /v/, archaic jamo

ᇴ /f/, archaic jamo

ㄷ /t/

ㅌ /th/

ㄸ /d/

ㄴ /n/

ㄹ /l/

ㄱ /k/

ㅋ /kh/

ㄲ /g/

ㅅ /s/

ㅆ /z/

ㅈ /ts/

ㅊ /tsh/

ㅉ /dz/

ㅎ /h/

ㆆ /?/, archaic jamo

ㅇ /gh/

ㆁ /ng/, archaic jamo

今 = ㄱ© + ㅣ(i) + ㄴ(n) = 긴 cin

今朝 = ㄱ© + ㅣ(i) + ㄴ(n); ㅈ(ts) + ㅗ(au) = 긴조 cintsau

经济 = ㄱ© + ㅣ(i) + ㄴ(n); ㅈ(ts) + ㅣ(i) = 긴지 cintsi

高级 = ㄱ© + ㅗ(au); ㄱ© + ㅣ(i) + ㆆ (?) = 고깅 cauciq = caucie

孛相 = ㅃ(B) + ㅡ(e) + ㆆ (?) ; ㅅ(s) +ㅑ(ia) + ㄴ(n) = 쁭샨 beqsian = besian

阿拉 = ㆆ (?) + ㅏ(a) + ㆆ (?); ㄹ(l) + ㅏ(a) + ㆆ (?) = 앙랑 qaqlaq = ala

游戏机 = ㅇ (gh) + ㅕ(ieu); ㅎ(h) +ㅣ(i); ㄱ© + ㅣ(i) = 여히기 ghieuhici = jeuhici

Hanzi only: 今朝阿拉游戏机孛相得来开心煞脱了!(Mandarin: 今天我们游戏机玩得好开心!)

Mixed script: 今朝앙랑游戏机쁭샨등래开心상틍릉!

Hangul only: 긴조 앙랑 여히기 쁭샨등래 케신상틍릉!

Romanization: Cintsau ala jeuhici besiantelei cheisinsathele!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Site Sponsors:
Pleco for iPhone / Android iPhone & Android Chinese dictionary: camera & hand- writing input, flashcards, audio.
Study Chinese in Kunming 1-1 classes, qualified teachers and unique teaching methods in the Spring City.
Learn Chinese Characters Learn 2289 Chinese Characters in 90 Days with a Unique Flash Card System.
Hacking Chinese Tips and strategies for how to learn Chinese more efficiently
Popup Chinese Translator Understand Chinese inside any Windows application, website or PDF.
Chinese Grammar Wiki All Chinese grammar, organised by level, all in one place.

Yuchi

Very interesting, I hadn't thought of that...

What about Hiragana or Katakana?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
atitarev
Very interesting, I hadn't thought of that...

What about Hiragana or Katakana?

What about Latin?

...

Ouch! It hurts!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ncao
What about Latin?

Isn't latinazation and romanization the same thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
atitarev

Yes, latinisation = romanisation. Hangul, Hiragana/Katakana or Latin are all foreign for Chinese but Latin is the most flexible (you can make up more sounds and create new combination, even use diacritics if something is missing or to put in tone marks).

There was a discussion about using Vietnamese script for Cantonese on Adam Sheik's forum (Cantonese discussions).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
amego

that was awesome!!! so does that mean koreans can speak shanghainese easily and vice versa?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bhchao

interesting post ala, I never knew about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ala
Yes, latinisation = romanisation. Hangul, Hiragana/Katakana or Latin are all foreign for Chinese but Latin is the most flexible (you can make up more sounds and create new combination, even use diacritics if something is missing or to put in tone marks).

But Latinization/Romanization is most aesthetically unpleasant to go along with Chinese characters (as in mixed script a la Japanese and Korean). The feeling is that native Chinese text should be either all in Latin letters or none (except for a few words such as high technology terms: internet, product brands: Compaq, abbreviations: CIA, AIDS etc). This is because Latin script is not confined syllabically, yet Chinese characters, Hangul and Kana are all syllabic. A mixed script is important because there are still a lot of homophonous words in the Chinese language that need to be differentiated, and also proper nouns such personal names and obscure Chengyu/idioms essentially have to use Chinese characters. The use of Hangul for Chinese languages can potentially unite East Asia under one phonetic script roughly based on Middle Chinese phonology; whereas romanization is way too varied and chaotic. For example, the character 朝 in Shanghainese is pronounced [tsO] romanized as "tsau" and in Korean is [tSo] romanized as "jo" or "cho", but both pronunciations can be written as 조 in Hangul, because their derivation from Middle Chinese is the same, so the letter ㅈ is "ts" in Shanghainese and ㅈ is "j" or "ch" in Korean, so the transcription is still phonemic for both languages and the end result is the same. For example the characters 今朝 (Shanghainese for "today") in Korean would be written 금조 in Hangul, but in Shanghainese would be written similarly as 긴조 in Hangul although the actual pronunciations in Korean and Shanghainese are very different. This is a very powerful versatility. Whereas, with romanization, there is romanizations based on English, French, etc etc. Each Asian language has 2 or 3 different romanizations alone. None of the romanizations are based on the ancestor Middle Chinese phonology of the bulk of Chinese character pronunciation used today in China, Japan and Korea.

The issue of tones can be solved in Hangul by using final consonants.

For example, the Qusheng tone 去声 was historically an -s final; so naturally -s (ㅅ) can be used. This leaves only 上声 Shangsheng. 平声 Pingsheng does not need to be marked, and 入声 Rusheng is the -p, -t, -k endings in Cantonese, which in Shanghainese is just a single glottal stop. 阴阳 yin/yang split in Shanghainese is expressed by voicing/no voicing, so does not need special tone marks. Basically this completely solves the problem of marking the 8 orthodox tones of Wu dialects and Middle Chinese. It's a heck lot simpler and more efficient than Mandarin's 4 tonal marks for 4+1 tones.

Examples of marking Qusheng in Wu dialects:

二 --> 닛 nis (gnis)

认 --> 닍 nins (gnins)

This is similar to French orthography, where "pas" and "sais" (je ne sais pas) have silent -s, just [pA] and [sE]. Historic spelling. Solves the tone problem in a very simple and historically accurate manner.

Even today, the Tibetan pronunciation for number "two" is /gnis/, confirming that historically Qusheng in archaic Chinese ended with -s final. This was before Chinese became tonal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kkoma

That is some amazing stuff there, I am also very impressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yuchi
What about Latin?

...

Ouch! It hurts!

Wouldn't be as original :nono

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

I had once considered using Hangul to write in Cantonese, but after reading this thread, I am convinced that it is much better suited to the Wu topolect. Bravo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hofmann

I tried it with Mandarin, and had to make up a lot of new letters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lu

I once thought about writing Mandarin Hangul-style but using bopomofo. But I doubt that solves any problem in need of solving. Ala's system for Shanghainese looks a lot more useful and practical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hofmann

I found my notes. I don't know how useful this is. I didn't mean it to be useful or make sense; it's just...something.

rk3fpx.jpg

So I didn't like how /f/, /l/, /ŋ/, /x/, and the retroflex letters were written in Hangul, so I changed them. They either took too long to write or looked too similar to other things. Finals took a bit of rearrangement to make it work, as you can see from my erasing marks. At first when I started testing it out I had to look at that table a lot.

als1fl.jpg

...Now that I think about it, /ɻ/ could have been 厶.

 

Edit: Oh look, I wrote dōng wrong...and fōng (in parentheses)...and zhōng...and yǒu...and possibly some other things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and select your username and password later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Click here to reply. Select text to quote.

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...