ZenLow Posted February 2, 2006 at 09:18 AM Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 09:18 AM Ok, mayhaps I think too much of myself as a bit of a different Mandarin student though I could easily not be. I am an absolute novice with a background in Catonese. I can converse in semi-fluent Catonese with few exceptions, but unfortunately can't read (parents didnt' teach me! ) Long story short - chinese parents, foreign country, make chinese baby. Unfortunately, chinese baby ends up learning broken english, hindi swear words, and fijian war chants. Anywho! just wondering if there are others out there who have been in my shoes and have made certain distinctions/associations/shortcuts whilst learning Mandarin with a tiny Catonese speaking background? I believe there are certain Universities who have courses that are geared for cantonese speakers learning mandarin. Oooh, if only i could get my grubby hands on them online material....!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabeafreak Posted February 2, 2006 at 09:57 AM Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 09:57 AM I am an absolute novice with a background in Catonese. I can converse in semi-fluent Catonese with few exceptions, but unfortunately can't read (parents didnt' teach me! )Long story short - chinese parents, foreign country, make chinese baby. Unfortunately, chinese baby ends up learning broken english, hindi swear words, and fijian war chants. Anywho! just wondering if there are others out there who have been in my shoes and have made certain distinctions/associations/shortcuts whilst learning Mandarin with a tiny Catonese speaking background? I believe there are certain Universities who have courses that are geared for cantonese speakers learning mandarin. Oooh, if only i could get my grubby hands on them online material....!? The cantonese to Mandarin courses are more geared to people who can read. Unfortunately as you've stated you cannot read, you will probably find it hard. I can speak semi-fluent cantonese too (survive easily in HK daily life and conversation)). When trying to learn Mandarin, I find it a lot different. You probably won't find much the same as the words sound differently, they are spoken on different tones and pitches and some grammar is different. Sure, "I now in Hong Kong live" could be translated literally. My partner who can read/write/speak cantonese perfectly took 3 years of NON-STOP mandarin speaking to Taiwanese to be able to speak it at around 60% of a native mainlander. Still cannot survive at a technical/university level of Mandarin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yihui Posted February 2, 2006 at 10:45 AM Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 10:45 AM I'm a Cantonese speaker who managed to learn Mandarin, so perhaps I can relate. I never took formal instruction in learning Mandarin, but I did manage to get to a level of fluency where I can hold conversations with people and understand things spoken to me. (I'd rank my fluency as being survival level, probably not even near high school standard) I still occasionally have to ask people to repeat or explain phrases I don't understand, but for the most part, I'm functional, unless the conversation requires specialized vocabulary such as words for economics, science, medicine, politics, etc. For me, the biggest barrier was getting the initial grammar and words down. The majority of the words between Mandarin and Cantonese are the same, but the difficulty lies in the fact that the most often used words are the ones that are different. Simple phrases like "but", "here", "there", "this one" and so on are different. For me, once I learned the pronunciations of enough core words in Mandarin, importing vocabulary from Mandarin to Cantonese wasn't too hard. Sometimes, even if I don't know the Mandarin pronunciation, I can approximate it because sound changes from Cantonese to Mandarin follow fairly predictable patterns; once you learn them, many times you can get close enough that you'll get understood. As with all languages, though, it's best to have people to practice with. I tried learning Mandarin by myself for about a year. I ended up learning a fair bit of vocabulary, but I was still not able to converse or listen fluently. Later, I ended up living in Singapore for short term, where I was exposed to Mandarin everyday. Once I had a regular friend to converse with on a daily basis, I was learning at lightspeed, and became fluent in less than half a year. (it also helped that my friends, being Singaporean, knew English too, so could explain in that when I didn't understand the Chinese) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenLow Posted February 2, 2006 at 11:21 AM Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 11:21 AM I can approximate it because sound changes from Cantonese to Mandarin follow fairly predictable patterns Cool, I'm doing Pimsleur 1, and already, i can see what you mean by patterns. Is there enough consistency so that rules can be made and applied? I haven't learnt enough Mandarin to make clearer distinctions, but maybe you could advise? Whilst going through the course, definitely notice the grammar has certain similarities. But perhaps the exceptions would be easier to isolate and recognise. What are your observations? More examples perhaps? (it also helped that my friends, being Singaporean, knew English too, so could explain in that when I didn't understand the Chinese) Thanks Yihui. Time to book my flight to singapore perhaps? -Zen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraldc Posted February 2, 2006 at 11:45 AM Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 11:45 AM There are little things, like H's tend to go to X's, but there aren't that many shortcuts. If there were Hong Kong would be fluent by now. When you speak a bit of both, you can see the similarities between mandarin and cantonese, but lots of mandarin speakers can't and as a result don't understand what you're saying when you start bending cantonese in an attempt to speak mandarin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenLow Posted February 2, 2006 at 11:58 AM Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 11:58 AM When you speak a bit of both, you can see the similarities between mandarin and cantonese, but lots of mandarin speakers can't and as a result don't understand what you're saying when you start bending cantonese in an attempt to speak mandarin. Well, thats just not fair isn't? Seems like we cantonese-come mandarin speakers have fallen on the short end of the bargain! Well, sometimes it seems these two dialects are far enough to be two languages geraldc, are you fluent in both? Can you consider my case - not being able to write but able to converse in cantonese, (hopefully) learning to read and write Mandarin. What happens when I come full circle? Hypothetically, -if I was armed with 1500 words vocabulary in Mandarin in Hong Kong. -and notbeing able to write traditional script, Would there be cause confusion while reading newspapers/magazines/MTR/Ferry schedules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraldc Posted February 2, 2006 at 03:56 PM Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 03:56 PM I'm a long way from fluent in either, however my family are Cantonese speaking, I used to speak it very well, until I started going to school, and then I just went downhill fast. I could always get by, but now I'm finding myself more and more tongue tied (with listening comprehension, it's good enough for a soap opera, but not good enough for a period drama, and the news used to bring up all sorts of problems), so a couple of years ago I decided to actually pull my finger out and improve my Chinese skills. So I went to mandarin lessons, and learnt to read and write to HSK intermediate level ( you're really going to have a head scratching time when you start learning the uses of 了, it's confusing for someone learning it for the first time, and doubly confusing for someone coming from a spoken Cantonese background ). I use all manner of tools when it comes to reading newspapers, most of the time I have pencil marks and notes over articles I've read, re new vocab etc. Newspapers are a funny case, as if you read them everyday, the stories develop and you find the same vocab repeated day to day, the more you read them, the easier it gets. When it comes to magazines like Eastweek, where they have a bit more cantonese, if you read it out aloud, you shouldn't have too many problems to get the meaning. You really don't need any Chinese (written or spoken) to get around by public transport, it's all in English as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etcetera24 Posted February 2, 2006 at 09:35 PM Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 at 09:35 PM ZenLow, my background is a combination of yours and geralds. I was born in HK and actually lived there for about 10 years. But I went to english schools my entire life so all my formal education was in english. I never learned to read/write chinese but spoke cantonese at home. I started studying mandarin in university; with a cantonese background, beginner courses were dead boring and far too slow to keep my interest in the language. But without being able to read/ write chinese, I couldn't take intermediate mandarin courses. Also, like wannabeafreak said, most mandarin for cantonese speaker courses also required chinese literacy. But I was lucky that at my school, they offered reading/ writing chinese for cantonese speakers (the course was taught in cantonese). So between a year of that course and a summer with a mandarin tutor for oral/aural practice, I was able to get my chinese literacy and mandarin speaking and listening to a level where I could stream into the intermediate mandarin course. Anyway, point 1: (if you have this option) prepare to search around and try out many courses and talk to teachers/ professors to find one that fits your current language ability and future language goals. This will take a while if you have a disparity between oral/aural fluency and literacy... don't be discouraged! See if you can sit in a mandarin class or two or only pay on a per-class basis. Being in university, I had the luxery of doing this and ended up sitting in almost every chinese course available before finally finding a course that fit my needs. Or alternatively, find a personal teacher who can tailor a course to your strengths and goals. Point 2: Cantonese is both helpful and not in learning mandarin (good comment huh) Knowing cantonese definitely helps remember vocab and terms. However, it often messes up my understanding of more sophisticated word order and grammar. I agree with geraldc - 了 is the bane of my existence! I found basic mandarin grammar to be quite intuitive to someone who knows cantonese - enough so that I never forced myself to learn grammar rules. But at higher levels I actually need to study and understand chinese grammar in order to form more complicated sentences. I can no longer rely on, "oh this sentence feels right because its similar to cantonese" because more often than not, the sentence is gramatically incorrect - even if the general meaning still comes across I think people who have this background often find themselves mentally juggling 3 languages when learning chinese: english, cantonese, and mandarin! Gives my brain a good workout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgaine Posted February 5, 2006 at 11:32 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 at 11:32 PM ZenLow, I'm in the same position as you are (without the fijian war chants ), but with all the comments made here, I'm a little more encouraged that it is very possible to speak mandarin, even with a canto/english background. etcetera24, thanks for the pointers. I'm glad to know what I should be expecting as I work on the learning and improving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atitarev Posted February 6, 2006 at 03:17 AM Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 at 03:17 AM I think you'll find your fast-track if whatever you learn sounds familiar, so if Europeans have to spend more time, you spend less, so you progress faster. Not sure, if you find this advise useful. Another, more useful piece of advice. If you use software for learning, try converting Mandarin standard texts into Cantonese and vice versa. That way you'll be able to find words that exist in both languages but pronounced differently. These are no brainer examples (I know there are different Cantonese words for some examples but this will produce Cantonese Mandarin). I guess, you're learning written Mandarin as well. 你好 - hello 再见 - goodbye 谢谢 - thanks 对不起 - excuse me 电视 - TV 电梯 - lift 收音机 - radio Mandarin pronunciation nǐhǎo zàijiàn xièxie duìbuqǐ diànshì diàntī shōuyīnjī Cantonese pronunciation: nei5 hou2 joi3 gin3 je6 je6 deui3 bat1 hei2 din6 si6 din6 tai1 sau1 yam1 gei1 To convert to Cantonese romanisation use HanConv (www.icycloud.tk). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenLow Posted February 9, 2006 at 11:22 AM Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 at 11:22 AM Morgaine, etcetera24, geraldc, We find solace in numbers After reading this article, I can't help feel empowered and extremely motivated. I always thought I had it hard, but for someone who is a native English speaker, they'd definitely find it much harder, especially with the tones. Reading about polyglots on this forum who conquered mandarin, and along with a myriad of other languages makes learning another 'dialect' for us seem like a menial task in comparison. What we can achieve is only limited by our imagination, and determination! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraldc Posted February 9, 2006 at 02:30 PM Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 at 02:30 PM I always thought I had it hard' date=' but for someone who is a native English speaker, they'd definitely find it much harder, especially with the tones. [/quote'] Tones? What tones? In Cantonese, I was never taught tones, I just knew words sounded different, but I couldn't tell why, i.e. if they were higher or lower, rising or falling tones etc, I would just tell you they were different from the meaning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgaine Posted February 10, 2006 at 10:46 PM Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 at 10:46 PM ^Lol, yeah, Chinese is a tonal language. Apparently Cantonese has 9 tones, although only 6 are technically used, and Mandarin has 4. What kills me, since I speak Cantonese but not particularly strongly, are those tones 'cause they differ between the two languages and halfway through speaking Mandarin, I'll switch back to Cantonese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenLow Posted February 12, 2006 at 12:23 AM Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 at 12:23 AM Morgaine, Tones are a bit tricky, even within Cantonese, I've noticed the tone inflections change when one speaks in Guangdong Cantonese, than say Hong Kong Cantonese. Obviously the later is more socially 'hip' since no one wants to be associated to being a Mainlander. In regards to this Cantonese->Mandarin fast track. I'm convinced that the best approach is to learn it as a new language. Any similarities in pronunciation/grammar will be a plus, but it seems that there is no 'easy/smart' approach to this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted February 12, 2006 at 10:17 AM Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 at 10:17 AM Tones are a bit tricky, even within Cantonese, I've noticed the tone inflections change when one speaks in Guangdong Cantonese, than say Hong Kong Cantonese. What's Guangdong Cantonese? Obviously the later is more socially 'hip' since no one wants to be associated to being a Mainlander. Not sure how true that is. I am one of the exceptions I guess. In regards to this Cantonese->Mandarin fast track. I'm convinced that the best approach is to learn it as a new language. Any similarities in pronunciation/grammar will be a plus, but it seems that there is no 'easy/smart' approach to this problem. I guess it depends on how well one knows Cantonese. Can he/she understand Cantonese TV news? if yes, he should be able to pick up Mandarin fairly easily, maybe a few months practice would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geek_frappa Posted February 13, 2006 at 12:55 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 at 12:55 AM What's Guangdong Cantonese? i think he may be referring to difference in "nei" and "lei", but i'm curious too what kind of cantonese i speak, since i also apparently have no idea either Cantonese->Mandarin fast track. please don't speak mandarin slowly. it makes you seem slow. some hong kongers have a problem with that... just some unsolicited advice. gaa yau! gaa yau! gaa yau! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgaine Posted February 13, 2006 at 05:38 PM Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 at 05:38 PM Morgaine, In regards to this Cantonese->Mandarin fast track. I'm convinced that the best approach is to learn it as a new language. Any similarities in pronunciation/grammar will be a plus, but it seems that there is no 'easy/smart' approach to this problem. I guess that really is the best advice. There's no real short-cut for learning a new language other than hardwork. Cantonese->Mandarin fast track. please don't speak mandarin slowly. it makes you seem slow. some hong kongers have a problem with that... just some unsolicited advice. Yeah, but when you learn, I think you have to in order to get the tones correct. But I just would make sure that it isn't a habit - to speak slow - 'cause it's just bad practice in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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