yi1 diar3?!?

[Aristotle]

I've been using a bit of chinesepod.com to learn chinese, but recently acquired the pimsleur audios. And now I'm confused. The word for "little" doesn't sound like the one I've heard. It sounds more like yi1 diar3 than yi1 dian3, which is what both chinesepod and zhongwen.com says it sould be. What's up with that? Is it a dialectal thing, or what's going on?

[Yi_Se_Lie_Ren]

My teacher is from Peking, and they all use "r" at the end of some words as a matter of accent. therefore- fan4guan3 sounds more like fan4guar3 (the r makes the n silent).

There is no rule for this (not one that I know of anyhow)...

[mikelove]

Adding 'r's to the end of syllables (particularly those that end with 'n') is a common feature of the Beijing dialect. They can be written as 儿, and a lot of dictionaries actually include a parenthetical (儿) at the end of words that are often said with that extra r.

[Legalease]

It's called 儿话. When in Beijing get used to it. Not all words that end in 'n' will be converted to 儿话 and it is a challenge to know when not to take off the 'n' and replace it with a 儿. If you get keen at it you can distinguish when a native is using 儿话 incorrectly and therefore tell s/he is not originally from Beijing. Also, lots of words that do not end in 'n' are also 儿 candidates like 男孩儿/女孩儿.

I invite the next post to tell us the weirdest 儿话 you have ever heard. It can be a tongue twister if there are too many in one sentence.

[Luoman]

My opinion is that it is better for a foreigner to learn words not paying attention to erhua and neutral tones. Someone may say that those two things are a part of the standard language, but let me say a few words of my own experience. In fact, when you speak with erhua and neutral tones, in many situations you will not be understood by people who are not from the north of China. They may joke or even express disgust for your speech. While if you speak without erhua and neutral tones, you surely will be understood all throughout China and also by overseas Chinese.

Thus, from the "standard" point of view you must learn erhua and neutral tones. But if you want to master "practical" language just don`t do it.

Ah, yes, the same with many words which are given in the textbooks for foreigners. Like 可 in the meaning of "very", 劲 meaning "fun" and others. Just know that they exist and be able to understand them.

And remember that people from the south often use erhua as an element of a joke.

[owshawng]

I found the er ending easier to say when I first started learning, especially for 3rd tones. Now that I've had more practice I'm getting better at speaking with either r or n endings.

[magores]

Before I came to China, I was learning Chinese from a few CDs and "Taiwan Mama" ( the mother of a friend of mine).

Early on, I learned that the CDs were teaching me "PuTongHua" (Beijing-style), while "Mama" was teaching me HER version of "GuoYu" (Taiwan-style). Dian=Diar. Okay. I got it.

Harder to process for me was the difference in the number 10.

-Mama 10 sounded like si, more than shi.

-Daughter sounded like shi.

-Other daughter sounded like "textbook" shi.

-Son, my friend, sounded different depending on the day I asked him.

Then I came to Beijing....

-Dian/Diar = Easy

-10 is shi = easy

Then, a new one popped up to confuse me...

The number 1 isn't always "yi". Sometimes, its "yo" (you?)

And, of course... The general area I live isn't always "PanJiaYuan". Sometimes, its "PanJiaYuar".

Taiwan Mama will literally smack me upside the head the first time she hears me say "Yuar".

I supposse it's kinda like the way I shake my head when I hear Americans say "Y'all".

[Mugi]

It's called 儿话.

That should be 儿化(音) ér hùa (yīn)

The number 1 isn't always "yi". Sometimes, its "yo" (you?)

yāo

[Lugubert]

There's a problem with (yi)dian®, occupying several lines in Colloquial Chinese (Routledge). I never understood it fully, but I think the matter at hand is more yi or not than r or not.

As for 1, I think that it can be yao when reading out for example a phone number, to avoid confusion, in the same way that the "official" German zwei for 2 is read "zwo" to better distinguish it from drei "3".

[nipponman]

I find it interesting to hear someone say that it is possible to speak without neutral tones.

While if you speak without erhua and neutral tones...

Does this sound normal? I can't tell.

[xiaocai]

I think at least "的" "地" "得" should be neutral.

They are given in neutral tones in dictionary rather than be nuetralised in sentence.

[Legalease]

Mugi - sorry but there is no such word as 儿hua with the 化 hua. Cite your source. Thanks.

[roddy]

Well, here's a 'source' for 儿化. I can't see any examples of 儿话 used as a word.

I can't agree with what Luoman says:

In fact, when you speak with erhua and neutral tones, in many situations you will not be understood by people who are not from the north of China. They may joke or even express disgust for your speech.

That's only possible if you happen to be at a Rude People's Conference. Are you saying that people who aren't from the north of China can't understand putonghua, but they can understand putonghua without er-hua and neutral tones. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Mugi]

Mugi - sorry but there is no such word as 儿hua with the 化 hua. Cite your source. Thanks.

Legalease, my source: the Chinese language. Try googling 儿化, 儿化音 or 儿化韵 ...

[Quest]

If 儿化 and 轻声 are a burden to your Chinese learning, I'd suggest do without them. I don't think talking like a Beijinger is chic -- try to fill your mouth half full of water and speak putonghua, and you will somewhat sound like a Beijinger. Unless you really like the Beijing accent, I agree that speaking with a more neutral accent isn't such a bad idea at all. I actually like the accent (安徽 or 陕西?) in 《孔雀》more. It preserves some of the old Chinese pronunciations and sounds very smooth.

[roddy]

Unless you really like the Beijing accent, I agree that speaking with a more neutral accent isn't such a bad idea at all

Yeah, I think there's a tendency for foreign learners (I know I've done it) to confuse Beijinghua and Putonghua and start chucking in 儿s much more frequently, not realising that this is only considered 地道 inside Beijing's second ring road, and anywhere else will make you sound like a 京油子.

To come back to the original question - there are sometimes alternative possibilities, such as 一点累 and 一点儿累. Both are acceptable, both will be understood - best thing to do is to be aware of both, and use the one you hear most often, be it from your textbooks or people around you. To-MA-to, Tom-AT-o.

For reference, I'm attaching a list of the 40 or so words in the HSK lists which end in 儿. Unfortunately the database as it stands doesn't allow me to generate a list of 轻声-ending words.

erwords.txt

[Legalease]

Mugi - I stand corrected. Thanks. But if you use the google test the other hua is also used. Upon comparing the pages though it becomes obvious yours is the proper choice.

[carlo]

The problem is that putonghua as spoken by educated Beijing speakers is documented in dictionaries and resources for learners of Chinese. While I agree that Anhui or Jiangsu accented Mandarin sounds nice, it's not that you as a foreign learner are going to speak like that by just leaving out the 儿s. Maybe it's more acceptable for a foreigner to speak 南腔北调 than Beijing Mandarin (since most Chinese can't speak Beijing Mandarin either), but that is another story.

[roddy]

A major issue is that putonghua as spoken by educated Beijing speakers is documented in dictionaries and resources for learners of Chinese.

Is this true though? (and it's a genuine question, I find this issue as confusing as anyone)

As I understand it, putonghua was constructed based around the way educated northerners spoke. This was then set as a standard, in a much more explict way than BBC English is 'standard' in the UK for example. Because of heavy promotion of putonghua, educated Chinese anywhere will now speak it - and while there may be some regional variation, this is acknowledged as different to putonghua - not different to beijinghua, or as different to how educated Beijingers speak.

Rather than 'putonghua as spoken by educated Beijing speakers is documented in dictionaries', I'd feel more comfortable with saying 'Putonghua, as defined in dictionaries, is spoken by educated Chinese.'

I know this seems pedantic, but I think it's important when you try and untangle all of China's many huas . . .

[Mugi]

Legalease, I think you'll find that with almost all examples of 儿话, the 儿 is actually attached to the previous character and not 话. I did see one Japanese page talking about "儿话" in the sense of 儿化, but this is clearly a mis-spelling. It probably stems from foreigners hearing the word "er2 hua4" and making the incorrect assumption that the hua4 is 话.