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badatpool

A Red Chamber disagreement - vote to solve!

that block of stone mentioned in the first chapter, afterwards turned into:  

  1. 1. that block of stone mentioned in the first chapter, afterwards turned into:

    • Jia Baoyu himself.
      10
    • the jade Baoyu had since he was born.
      10


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badatpool

I've got a bet going about Dreams of the Red Chamber, after we was talking about if another title The Story of the Stone is appropriate …so the question is: that block of stone mentioned in the first chapter, afterwards turned into...?

Thanks for your vote.

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trevelyan

I always thought it travelled into the world as a piece of jade. But I'm technically not finished the first chapter yet, so my opinion is based on a combination of ignorance and a revisionist English translation I picked up in a used bookstore several years ago.

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Lu

Into Jia Baoyu himself, as the flower turned into Lin Daiyu, thus giving them both the opportunity to fulfill their debts: he gave her water every day when she was a flower, and she wanted to repay him that by shedding a lot of tears over him. He is the reincarnation of the stone, the jade he was born with is sort of a symbol of that.

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badatpool

莫不是林黛玉还泪竟还到了一块顽石身上?“神瑛侍者”在哪里?

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Lu

Sorry, I don't understand that sentence. My Chinese is good but not that good.

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skylee

I agree with Lu's post.

神瑛侍者=石頭=賈寶玉 (who was born with the jade)

恰近日这神瑛侍者凡心偶炽,乘此昌明太平朝世,意欲下凡造历幻缘,已在警幻仙子案前挂了号.警幻亦曾问及,灌溉之情未偿,趁此倒可了结的.那绛珠仙子道:`他是甘露之惠,我并无此水可还.他既下世为人,我也去下世为人,但把我一生所有的眼泪还他,也偿还得过他了.'

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badatpool

In Zhen Shiyin's dream, I think maybe we can tell that the stone and the Divine Luminescent Stone-in-Waiting are not the same. I think in this story the stone was a witness, a recorder, but not a participant. This is also mentioned in Chapter 15.

凤姐因怕通灵玉失落,便等宝玉睡下,命人拿来塞在自己枕边.宝玉不知与秦钟算何帐目,未见真切,未曾记得,此是疑案,不敢纂创.

And, I checked David Hawke’s translation, I guess he translated it from 程高本. Seems like in his translation that the stone=Divine Luminescent Stone-in-Waiting=Jia Baoyu.

那时这个石头因娲皇未用,却也落得逍遥自在,各处去游玩,一日来到警幻仙子处,那仙子知他有些来历,因留他在赤霞宫居住,就名他为赤霞宫神瑛侍者

Well, Gao E…he ruined lots of things in this book…

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Lu

Gao E finished the book when Cao Xueqin couldn't, it's thanks to him that we have a complete novel to read at all. It's very easy to pick at Gao E for not being as brilliant as Cao, but I don't think it's fair.

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xiaoxiajenny

《红楼梦》本名《石头记》,全书以“石头”(贾宝玉)为主角,讲述了一个以“木石前盟”为主线的宝黛爱情悲剧。故事开篇就是一个神奇的石头故事:

女娲氏炼石补天之时,于大荒山无稽崖炼成高十二丈,方经二十四丈顽石三万

六千五百零一块。娲皇氏只用了三万六千五百块,只单单的剩了一块未用,便弃在

此山青埂峰下,谁知此石自经锻炼之后,灵性已通,因见众石俱得补天,独自己无

材入选,遂自怨自叹,日夜悲号惭愧。

作者为何选择以石头为原型而不选择其他如金玉或花草果实为原型呢?就涉及到远古图腾的问题,即灵石崇拜。

与石器时代约三百万年的漫漫长夜相比,金属时代以降的短短数千年历史简直只是几乎可以略而不计的短短一瞬。自人类诞生以来,他们就与石器为伴,并成为他们的生产工具。在人类历史长河中,没有任何一种物质能如石头一样与人类相伴如此之久,也没有任何一种物质能如石头一样在人类潜意识中积淀如此之深。因此,他们自然而然对石头产生了依赖并视其为图腾物挂在脖子上或手上。尽管石器作为文明时代已消逝在历史长河中,但人类对于远古石头之梦的追忆却一直延续至今,并由此不断推衍出一系列有关石头的美丽而神奇的故事,如《西游记》的石猴等。

贾宝玉是石头的化身,并且是女娲弃之不用的顽石,通过一僧“念咒书符,大展幻术”,石头变成了一块“鲜明莹洁的美玉”。这僧人代表的是人类,通过人类一相情愿的意志(即僧人之咒符),顽石变成了灵石,且又经由僧人携至红尘,降落人间。自此,贾宝玉完成了由“石”而“玉”的第一次转变,但其本质依然为“石”。

因贾宝玉衔玉而来的奇异出生,家人(尤其是女性)皆爱如珍宝,并视通灵宝玉为命根。玉石上正面刻有“莫失莫忘,仙寿恒昌”的篆体小字,这是人类对灵石的一种期待,也可作为灵石为图腾物的理由和依据。

《红楼梦》中有两条爱情主线,一是“木石前盟”,一是“金玉良缘”。在世人眼中“都道是金玉良缘”,而他却“只念木石前盟”。林黛玉初进荣国府时,宝黛相见,石头问她:“(妹妹)可也有玉没有?”当得知黛玉无玉,他便发作起来,摘玉就摔,并骂道:“什么罕物,连人之高低不择,还说‘通灵’不‘通灵’呢!我也不要这劳什子了。”在这里可以看出,通灵宝玉在贾宝玉眼里仅仅是一块石头,当他摔玉时,一方面在木(绛珠仙草)面前表现了“石”的身份;另一方面也奠定了“木石前盟”的前世姻缘。这也可以解析为什么他不在首次见宝钗湘云时摔玉而只在黛玉面前摔玉的缘故。

贾宝玉一直在为自己能够成为石并成就“木石前盟”而努力,但这只是一种理想,永远不会成为现实,因为在世俗眼里,灵石(即宝玉)才是他们崇拜的对象,他们一旦承认了“木石前盟”,就承认了灵石即顽石的本质。而“金玉”象征富贵荣华,这才是他们追求的目标。虽然灵石(玉)的前身和原形是顽石,但世人却将其排除在意识之外。

当世俗最终给贾宝玉确立了“金玉良缘”之后,顽石开始“枉凝眉”,终日“枉自嗟呀”,并逐步显示其顽石之原型和本性。自此,他开始意识到“失去幽灵真境界,幻来污浊臭皮囊”的苦痛和悲哀。这给他最终走向空门提供了条件。

小说最后交代了宝玉(或灵石)的下落:“宝玉,即宝玉(贾宝玉)也。那年荣宁查抄之前,钗黛分离之日,此玉早已离世。一为避祸,一为撮合,从此夙愿一了,性质归一。”这里的“钗黛分离之日”改为“黛玉离世之日”似更确切些,因为“金玉良缘”是尘世姻缘,而“木石前盟”则是仙界因缘在尘世的补偿和延续。因此,绛珠仙草(黛玉)一走之后,必须显现其顽石之原形,而这个转变似与金(金钗)无涉。

风雪之夜,消失多月的顽石突然出现世俗(贾政)面前,此时的贾宝玉袈裟斗篷已是顽石的原型本色。贾政手足无措,还没反应过来便听到顽石的歌声:我所居兮,青埂之峰;我所游兮,鸿蒙太空。谁与我游兮,吾谁与从。渺渺茫茫兮,归彼大荒。自此,贾宝玉再次完成了由尘世之“玉”而为“石”的又一次转变。

《石头记》完成了由“石”变形为“玉”再回归为“石”的三部曲演绎人世之悲欢离合和生命的阴阳消长的过程,是一次石头神话之特独重述与改装。其“石——玉——石”的转变对应于“神——俗——神”之两界。何以顽石对应神界,灵玉却对应俗界呢?这就与远古图藤相关。前文已述,与人类相伴最久的为石,因此,石是最原始最朴素的意象,这正合神界之特性,且此顽石为女娲所遗。由此可知,顽石经过人类意志的改造,赋予它灵性,最终成为世俗这图腾,即灵石崇拜。

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badatpool
Gao E finished the book when Cao Xueqin couldn't, it's thanks to him that we have a complete novel to read at all. It's very easy to pick at Gao E for not being as brilliant as Cao, but I don't think it's fair.

Is it that important to read a complete version? His ending is not as brilliant as Cao’s but just far from being brilliant. Except Zhang Ailing’s 金锁记, I don’t enjoy most of her works, but I agree with her comment on Gao E – “死有余辜” (Sorry,my English is not that good, so I don't know how to explain this idiom in English).

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Lu

Well, if you rather read an incomplete novel than an ending by Gao E, you're free to stop reading where Cao Xueqin stopped writing.

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Lu

Just finished reading the HLM (English translation), and in the very last chapter, Zhen Shiyin, who has by then become a monk, says: 'Jia Bao-yu is the Stone, the Precious Jade.'

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studentyoung
I've got a bet going about Dreams of the Red Chamber, after we was talking about if another title The Story of the Stone is appropriate …so the question is: that block of stone mentioned in the first chapter, afterwards turned into...?
我提醒那位红迷朋友,贾宝玉在天界是谁,书里可是有明确交代的。也是在第一回,你往下看,就写到甄士隐这个人,他做梦,梦见一僧一道,说要去找警幻仙姑,把一些有待下凡的“风流冤家”交给她做具体的安排,并且说要把一件“蠢物”夹带其中,让它一起下凡经历经历,记得吧?后来甄士隐上前搭话,还请求把那“蠢物”拿给他看看,人家也就让他看了,但并没有暗示那“蠢物”就是以后的贾宝玉。反倒是在看“蠢物”之前,甄士隐听见仙僧讲到一个天界故事,就是在西方灵河岸三生石畔,注意啊,那可是一处跟大荒山无稽崖青埂峰完全不同的空间,在那里,有一座赤瑕宫,里面住着个神瑛侍者,他现在也要下凡去。因为他每天用雨露浇灌一株绛珠仙草,那仙草修成女身,也要下凡,所以说到了人间,那女子就要把一生的眼泪,用来报答这位神瑛侍者的灌溉之恩。而这才是贾宝玉和林黛玉的天界身份啊
这位红迷朋友注意到,通行本的《红楼梦》可能为了省事,修改简化了古本《石头记》的有关文字,把女娲补天剩余石跟通灵宝玉跟神瑛侍者全画了等号,意思是它们三位一体,到头来都是贾宝玉。这样一来,一些古本里头用女娲补天剩余石口气写下的叙述文字,当然也就被通通删掉了。比如古本里写元妃省亲,有段文字就是用石头的口气写的,说只见园中说不尽的太平气象,富贵风流,此时回想当初在大荒山青埂峰下,那等凄凉寂寞,若不亏癫僧、跛道二人携来到此,又安能得见这般世面……还说本欲作《灯月赋》《省亲颂》,以志今日之事,但又恐入了别书的俗套什么的。这位红迷朋友说,他读到古本里这样一些文字,一度认为曹雪芹是把贾元春的来历,设计成女娲补天剩下的那块石头,因为想写《灯月赋》《省亲颂》的,应该是贾元春啊。
大荒山无稽崖青埂峰下的那块女娲补天剩余石,缩成扇坠般大小,镌上了字,本是没有修成人身的一件东西,所以仙僧称它为“蠢物”。它单独是无法下凡到人间的,只能是在警幻仙姑将一干风流冤家布散人间,安排投胎入世的时候,顺便夹带于中,因此它其实就是贾宝玉落生时,嘴里所衔的那块通灵宝玉。第八回薛宝钗托在掌上细看,它大如雀卵,虽然用了一个“大”字,其实是说它很小,因为雀儿下的蛋,体积是很小的,一个胖大的婴儿落生时衔在嘴里——不是完全包含在闭合的口腔里——是完全说得通的。所以说,贾宝玉是贾宝玉,通灵宝玉是通灵宝玉,只不过他们同时来到人间,而且贾宝玉后来天天佩戴着它,共生存,他们之间有一种神秘的关系,贾宝玉一旦丢失了它,生理上精神上就会出现严重危机,曹雪芹是这样来设计的
  按曹雪芹的构思,青埂峰的石头被夹带着下凡,后来被贾宝玉时时佩戴在脖子上,成为了一个见证者;它有灵性,在王熙凤和贾宝玉双双被赵姨娘暗算——通过马道婆把他们魇了——几乎死去的情况下,由于仙僧到来,把它拿在手中持诵,结果像它上面镌刻的文字所宣称的那样,除邪祟,疗冤疾,叔嫂二人康复如初。由于它有灵性,不是一般的佩带物、吉祥物,因此,贾宝玉到了何处它固然也就见闻到了何处,但是,贾宝玉没把它带到的地方,它也能全知全晓。作为人间悲欢离合的见证者,它最后回到了青埂峰,空空道人发现了它,那时候它已经恢复了巨石的形态,并且上面写满了字,什么字?就是《石头记》,就应该是我们现在看到的这些文字,它们正是空空道人抄录下来,传布到人间的

http://www.caixia.net/adetail.asp?Aid=540

Cheers!

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badatpool

不过有人竟把红楼梦当作是高鹗的红楼梦,可真是有趣的紧呢,第一个反应就是“洗洗睡吧”...

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studentyoung
不过有人竟把红楼梦当作是高鹗的红楼梦,可真是有趣的紧呢,第一个反应就是“洗洗睡吧”...

唔——这是怎么回事?

Cheers!

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Rhubarb
that block of stone mentioned in the first chapter, afterwards turned into...?

the jade Baoyu had since he was born.

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