Pronunciation of "w" and "r"

[Shui]

I am a bit confuzed about the pronunciation of these two. When I hear my chinese teacher pronounce "w", it sounds morelike "v". So, "zhong wen" sounds like "zhong ven".

And for "r", nor as in 二，but in 日. It sounds more like a jjjh sort of sound. I am not sure how it should be written in english. It sounds to me like the "j" of the french "je", or like the "s" of "measure".

谢谢你。

ありがとうございます。

[MCDULL]

the pronunciation of "w" in chinese is roughly the same as "w" in "when" or "want",different from "v" as "very" or "vote".

"r" in"日”is particular,"日”spells“ri”in chinese, but the "i" is not pronounced,only "r" works （第四声），so “日”sounds like "j" in French. But "r" in "人（ren）" or

"如（ru）" is pronounced as in "red" or "root".

[semantic nuance]

As a native Chinese speaker, I feel confused too. Why is it 'zhong van' instead of 'zhong wen' spoken in mainland china? Here in Taiwan, we say "zhong wen'. But I do remember one tv anchor here who likes to use 'ven' instead of 'wen'. Perhaps she tries to act authentic or something. I have no idea.

As for the pronunciation of 二, it's like [ar] sound as in 'are'. You can pronounce it as 'er' as in 'bird' or 'ar' as in 'are'.

Hope it helps!

[anonymoose]

The w sounding like v thing is probably because of your teacher's regional accent. I'm guessing he/she's from the northeast of China. Some people in Dalian speak like that.

As for r sounding like jjjh, I think that's fairly normal (at least from what you've described, without actually being able to hear it).

[skylee]

I think that w/v thing is fairly common. When some actors pronounce it like this, sometimes I think I see they bite their lips. ha ha. But I think it is quite nice on the ear.

[atitarev]

Interesting that Chinese R is transliterated as either Ж (initial) or Р (final) in Russian. The first is pronounced in Russian as "zh" (French "j" or English "s" in measure) and the second is "r". Initial and final R are quite different in Chinese but the initial R is not quite as French "J", it's something between French "J" and English "R"

[Quest]

I started to notice Cantonese "w" is half way between "v" and "w" as well, and realized my Cantonese "w" has been "corrupted" by my English "w", sigh...

[Shui]

Ah, thank you.

So then, the "v" sounding "w" is a regional thing? I know that my teacher is a native beijing-ite, so it probably is just the northeastern accent.

谢谢。

[jukebox]

So then, the "v" sounding "w" is a regional thing?

Yes, it happens amolst only in Beijing, but this doesn't apply to 我/wo 五/wu.

[jbiesnecker]

The 'w' -> 'v' thing is definitely a regional variation. My wife is from Changchun and does it too (so it's not only happening in Beijing ).

[Mugi]

The 'w' -> 'v' thing is definitely a regional variation. My wife is from Changchun and does it too

It even occurs in Taiwan! My Taiwanese teacher (early 30s) says that when she was at school she was told to pronounce [w] as [ʋ] for all words that would have an "a" or "e" following the "w" in pinyin. I've noticed some Taiwanese TV news presenters use this pronunciation before, but I don't know how prevalent it is.

I don't have the reference on hand, but can recall reading some research on [ʋ] in Beijing dialect. If my memory serves me right, it's much more predominant among (young) women than men, and has gained in popularity since the 1980s, perhaps due to the popularization of TVs. (It's not actually a true "v" [v], but rather a "soft v" [ʋ] (labiodental approximant))

[roddy]

I've heard this occassionally, but

pronounce [w] as [ʋ] for all words that would have an "a" or "e" following the "w" in pinyin.

is the first time I've seen any kind of rule. Interesting.

[Mugi]

I'll try and dig up the reference I have for this (however, I'm in the process of shifting house at the moment, so it may be a month before I can find the right box! )

[melop]

I guess [w] and [v] is not strictly distinguished in Chinese dialects, that's why some Chinese people find it difficult to learn languages that distinguish them. Most of the time I would say [w], I find myself seldom say [v].

r is a retroflex sound just like English, actually the mandarin [r] was evovled from middle Chinese's [j] sound, that's why many dialects keep using [j](like Cantonese) instead of the retroflex [r].

[stephanhodges]

r is a retroflex sound just like English

My understanding is that English "r" uses the tip of the tongue much more, and Mandarin uses the sides (edges) of the tongue, with tip relatively relaxed.

[melop]

em... Yeah, that's right. Actually the English r is follow by a lighten "w" sound, [rw]. Anyway, I remember these two sounds are written the same in IPA method.

But compared to Rs in other languages, the mandarin r and English r are very similar I think.

[in_lab]

Are there some words that are never pronounced with a "v"? When I imagine someone saying "ven yi ge venti" I imagine a german or a transylvanian.

[melop]

I haven't noticed much people pronounce "问一个问题" as "ven yi ge ven ti", usually we use the "w" sound here. But since there's no "v" sound in Mandarin, maybe some people would prefer to say a "v" sound I guess.

[Roee]

The "w" and "v" pronunciation issue is definitely caused by influence of the local dialect, very similar to mixup of "zh" and "z" in many areas of China.

[Naphta]

The other day a Chinese girl asked me "vei shenme" and I thought she was using a pattern (I first heard "fei") I had never heard before. Then I realized she pronounced the pinying "w" more or less like an English "v". She comes from Gansu and has never lived in Beijing. She can't speak any Gansu dialect either. Maybe this pronunciation has spread and become a kind of standard for some native speakers?