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opper567

Complex Directional Complements

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opper567

I'm not sure if thats what they're called... but there's this grammar/logic problem I am having.

Simple Directional Complements are like:

上来, 下来, 起来, 回来, 出来, 进来, 过来

上去, 下去, 起去, 回去, 出去, 进去, 过去

but...

what does it mean when one puts a verb before these, like the examples below (subjects are meant to be before)?...

走上来, 走过来

带回去

拿回来

记起来

写出来

想起来, 想出来

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semantic nuance
上来, 下来, 起来, 回来, 出来, 进来, 过来

上去, 下去, 起去, 回去, 出去, 进去, 过去

I've never heard of '起去'.

來--coming to the direction of the speaker.

去-being away from the direction of the speaker.

2. V+directional phrase just means the action is done with the information of the direction.But, in your examples not all of them show directions. 記起來, 寫出來, 想起來, 想出來 are not used to indicate directions. Yes, the subject is put before all these phrases.

Hope it helps!:)

edit:

带回去--take back

拿回来--bring back

记起来--remember/ write something down

叫起來--to get sb up

写出来--write out

哭出來--cry out

笑出來--laugh out

想起来--remember

想出来--come up with ideas

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weiming

Firstly, all of this is very well documented in a book I have...and cannot find. I will attempt instead a comprehensive item-by-item interperetation for ye.

I don't pretend to be able to give you advice on your particular 'language journey' but I personally 'suggest' you drop the formality and complex notions in your head surrounding these directional modifiers.

Chinese, to me, seems to be extremely 'preposition poor' and so they bend around these few words to make things sort of...work. As a side note, there seems to be some confusion in Chinese as to the specific meanings of 'come' and 'go', but we'll get to that later.

That having been said, let me attempt an item-by-item interperetation and we'll see if things become any clearer.

上来 -- move upwards, to speaker (come up) (usually literal)/ to come to or arrive at the speaker's

(1)上来呀! (imperative) Come (on) up!

(2) 别让他们追上来! Don't let them catch up to us!

下来 -- move downwards, to object (come down) (usu. lit.)/ to lessen in intensity of emotions, to abate

(1)下来呀!Come (on) down!

(2)下来!Get down!(imper.)

(3)拿下来 To take down [somethinng that is not attatched] glasses/hats/fruit=摘(zhai1)下来

(4)躺下来. Lay down. (regardless of position of speaker)

(5)一片叶子落下来了. A single leaf fell/drifted down. (towards me, from above)

(6)大家都安静下来了. Everyone calmed down.

(7)冷静下来. Calm/cool down!

起来 -- to rise (pys.)

(1)起床 To get up (out of bed).

(2)抬起来 To lift up

(3)站起来 To stand up

(4)拿起来 To pick up [from a place BELOW you, but not on the ground something that is not physically ATTATCHED to anything]

(5)捡起来 To pick up something from or near the ground that is not attatched

*采=to pick from below, as in flowers

起来 -- move upwars quickly (phys.)

(1)飞起来 To fly (into the air) 起飞 (of aircraft) Take off

(2) 蹦(beng4)起来 To spring up (onto one's feet)

起来 --to begin (doing/happening) of emotions, to intensify

(1)吵起来(架) To begin/start arguing/yelling

(2)跳起来舞 To start dancing

(3)吹起来风 To start blowing (wind)

(4)大家都高兴起来了 Everyone became excited.

起来 -- to shut/close up

(1)藏起来 To hide something (up).

(2)封起来 To seal something (up).

(3)躲起来 To hide (oneself) up.

回来 *it's very important to understand the meaning of '回'. Many misunderstand it as 'to go back', this is incorrect. The original form of '回' is circular, it is a pictograph, it is a wheel, 'turning' the correct meaning is 'to return'. The importance of this differentiation will become clear below. It can also be a measure word for 'instances' or 'times', used formally. This meaning is the same as '次'.

回来 -- return [to an original state/position]

(1)我马上回来 I'll be right back.

(2)你走了(的话),不要回来! If you go, then don't come back!

(3)你很长时间没回来 You haven't been back/returned for a while [regardless of whether the object has returned already or not]

回来 -- any action resulting in returning to the subject/recipient

(1)拿回来 Take/bring back

(2)带回来 Carry back

(3)要回来 Request for/ get something back

(4)偷回来 Steal something back

回来 -- return to an original state

(1)变回来 Change back

出来 -- to expel/draw out (phys.)

(1)推出来 To push out

(2)喷出来 To spray out

(3)倒出来 To pour/dump out

出来 -- to expose

(1)露(lou/lu4)出来 To expose

(2)说出来 To say (after convincing/asking)

(3)猜出来 To guess (out)/Figure out

出来 used (retardedly in some cases) with forms of 'do'

(1)作出来 Do/complete/accomplish

(2)写出来 Write (out)

(3)挑/选出来 Pick out

God, this is exhausting, it's now 1 a.m., and I've gotten tired, you get the idea, I'm sure.

进来 -- to come in (to invite someone into a place where you already are), and figuratively to include

过来 -- to come towards, figuratively, to come around to recover, or complete an action where 'circularity' is implied. Like to complete a turn.

上去 -- to go up, away from the speaker

下去 -- to go down, away from the speaker, of a trend/existant reality to continue continue living, continue certain behaviour

起去 -- this does not exist and if you fully understand '去', you would see why.

*去 basically means to go, figuratively it means to go 'down'. Time and events in Chinese do not continue from left to right as in the Western 'time line', they go from top to bottom as in 上个星期 last week下个星期 next week. '起去' 'rise, (go) down' is therefore oxymoronic and ideologically impossible. Ironically, the words appear together all the time, but in the phrase '一起去', 一起(together)+去(go). Yeah, that'll bake your noodle...

回去 -- return, to one's FORMER position/location

出去 -- go out

进去 -- go in (to a place that the speaker is not in) to put into

过去 -- to pass/ pass by also a NOUN, meaning the past to pass out etc. you get it

To really understand these, you need to use them in full sentences, complete with subject, preposition and object to make sure you're not making mistakes, for example:

Get off the bus is 下车,and not 下去车.

With 来, there are two structures, the formal 拿起笔来, and the informal 拿起来笔 think of it as the 'no preposition ending a clause' thing in English. Chinese, true to form, went the other way with this one.

Good Luck, and keep studying.

-N

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WangLongju

.

> I've never heard of '起去'.

Interestingly, qi3qu4 did exist for a time and is apparently still a part of many topolects (mainly W-SW'ern, if I remember correctly). It was later beat out by shang4/xia4qu4. A recent dissertation (2006) done at the U of HI (USA) by CHEN Zhen explored the genesis and evolution of Disyllabic Directional Compounds (DDC) and categorized their present differing and sometimes ambiguous semantics.

.

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weiming

Exactly, and that's the only place you may find it, some nondescript 'topolect' or at least dialect, and/or some obscure research dissertation---at least it is implied that 起去 was included in that dissertation...

If you ever actually see or hear this...anywhere, please tell me first, it would make great party conversation.

To imply (again) that 起去 and 上去 once vied for linguistic superiority is confusing to me as well, since 起 means to rise in the sense of extend upwards, and means to be physically on a platform/level, or above a platform/level.

If you were looking for a pair compliment, it would be 伏, as in 起伏.

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WangLongju

.

> Exactly, and that's the only place you may find it, some nondescript

> 'topolect' or at least dialect, and/or some obscure research

> dissertation---at least it is implied that 起去 was included in that

> dissertation...

I don't know why you need to be so confrontational, I was just reporting what I heard. Topolects/Dialects are quite descript, especially by many researchers in China.

Despite your obvious disdain for scholarship, here are some examples from the not-so-obscure research (all information is within our grasp if we spend a little time looking for it).

First, a quick search on Google provides these examples:

西遊記 (59)

作者:吳承恩 :

急縱觔斗,跳起去,將葫蘆底兒朝天,口兒朝地,照定妖魔,叫聲「銀角大王」。

走起去撒!

你们把巴蒂带起去踢都输了?

真的是,越看越想把那些盗号的剁成肉浆,他狗R盗起去就卖几个G,这些J8人浪个想的哟

相机寄起去修了一个多月了,还没寄回来。

And from Taiwanese:

貼起去

灌不起去

不鼓起去說...

生九孔洗淨後,將肉挖起去肚後以熱水燙熟。

這“擔起去”一語常常使人發生爭論。

And then there's this document form the Chinese government on the subject:

from which I repost the following:

2001年8月,我在新加坡肯特岗语法学术讨论会上宣读论文《说“起去”》;接着,对这篇论文重新整合,改写为《“起去”的普方古检视》,并于2001年9月在全国方言学会年会(西安)上宣读。几天之后,方言学家张振兴先生发来E-mail,告知这篇文章在文献的罗列上有疏漏。于是,我进一步检查文献,写了短文《有关“起去”的两点补说》,其中写道:“最早肯定‘起去’可以成立的,应该是中国科学院语言研究所语法小组的《语法讲话》。《语法讲话(八)》讨论补语问题时,同时列出了‘起来’和‘起去’(《中国语文》1953年第3期)。后来,根据《语法讲话》修订而成的由丁声树、吕叔湘、李荣等先生合著的《现代汉语语法讲话》,1961年由商务印书馆出版,完全保留了同时承认‘起来’和‘起去’的意见。”接着特别指出,‘十分感谢张振兴先生,2001年12月5日,张先生发来电子邮件,提醒了笔者:由丁声树先生主持的《现代汉语语法讲话》曾经提到过‘起去’的问题,请参考一下。”

...

四 坚持求信存疑

任何学术研究,都是为了求取可信的结论;但是,任何论著,都不可能把所有问题全都彻底解决。在力求取得创新性成果的基础上,善于保存遗留的疑难问题,以便做进一步的探索,有利于形成富有生气的学风和文品。

讲两个例子。

2001年,我写上面提到的《“起去”的普方古检视》一文,《方言》杂志刊登在2002年第2期上面。这篇文章讨论的问题是:在现代汉语趋向动词系统中,可以说“起来”,能不能说“起去”?针对许多现代汉语教材和语法著作所持的否定态度,我的文章提出了肯定性的结论。文章考察了现当代作家作品《骆驼祥子》《四世同堂》《吕梁英雄传》《三里湾》《红旗谱》《李自成》《绿化树》《白鹿原》和《羊的门》,发现有“起去”;又考察了河北、山东、湖北、湖南、四川、江西和台中等许多方言,发现有“起去”;还考察了近代古代作品《红楼梦》《儿女英雄传》《水浒》《西游记》《金瓶梅》《醒世姻缘传》《二十年目睹之怪现状》《官场现形记》《警世通言》《喻世明言》《二刻拍案惊奇》《飞龙全传》《荡寇志》《聊斋志异》《世说新语》《后汉书》和《汉书》,发现有“起去”。在此基础上,文章从话语场境、句法管控和匀整系统的总体趋同三个方面作了理论的阐释。但是,文章仍然存在这样那样需要进一步求索的问题。因此,我在短文《有关“起去”的两点补说》中这么写道:

朱德熙先生在《语法讲义》里讨论“趋向补语”时指出:“北京话里没有跟‘起来’‘开来’相配的‘起去’‘开去’。”(128页)朱先生说的是“北京话里”。笔者不是北京人,尽管本文已经从不同角度证明了“起去”可以成立,却不敢咬定北京话里有“起去”。然而,起码有几个问题值得思考:第一,在北京工作多年的人,并不就是北京人。而老舍是地道北京人,他的《骆驼祥子》和《四世同堂》中出现“起去”,如何解释?第二,文康的《儿女英雄传》,袁行霈(1999)指出:“此书尤为擅长的则是它纯熟、流利的北京口语。”又指出:“《儿女英雄传》开创了地道的京味⋯⋯成为京味小说的滥觞。”《儿女英雄传》中出现“起去”,如何解释?第三,如果说《骆驼祥子》、《四世同堂》和《红楼梦》、《儿女英雄传》里的“起去”都是从方言里来的,这就需要“寻根”。既然“起去”不是某个方言所独有的现象,那么,它的方言的“根”,到底在哪里呢?

这就是存疑。是就“起去”和“北京话”的关系,进一步求教于方家。

> If you ever actually see or hear this...anywhere, please tell me

> first, it would make great party conversation.

I don't know why you feel a need to be so condescending. Historical linguistic data is just that, a snapshot of language used at varying times in history. Sounds, words, and phrases all experience ebb and flow, some survive longer, some don't. If you're not familiar with the history of the language, I see no reason to deride those that study it.

> To imply (again) that 起去 and 上去 once vied for linguistic

> superiority is confusing to me as well, since 起 means to rise

> in the sense of extend upwards, and means to be physically

> on a platform/level, or above a platform/level.

as does 上 shang4, as you yourself said:

> > 上来 -- move upwards, to speaker (come up)

So, given the similar nature of 上 and 起 , why is it so confusing that they might have competed in actual usage? There is no implication, but rather sound research that has revealed examples in the history of the language.

> If you were looking for a pair compliment, it would be 伏, as in 起伏.

Sorry, that is not a "pair complement", but rather an antonymous pair. 起伏 would make less sense as a complement than 起去 would.

.

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weiming

Wang longju:

I'm so sorry that you took such affront to my statements. Sadly enough there is no intonation that you can hear over my words to soften their meaning, and remove the doubt of sarcasm (as from the statement which you found 'condescending'). Be that as it is, perhaps I should be more careful in selecting language that might be construed that way in the future. I see now that such language was unneccessary in the first place. My apologies.

Here is what I might have said instead and perhaps avoided offending you:

I personally have never heard of '起去. If it does exist it is certainly not to be found anywhere in mainstream Mandarin (currently). Keeping in mind that all sorts of colloquialisms and aphorisms exist which change from year to year and often don't make it into writing or common use, and that China has a long history.

//> If you ever actually see or hear this...anywhere, please tell me

> first, it would make great party conversation.//

You took this as (emphatic) sarcasm, unfortunately I'm being 100% sincere. I love bits of minutiae and trivia in my own language, and am always looking for them in Chinese as well. Like the character '纛'(dao4). That's毒 (top) 具(bottom left) and 系 (bottom right). I'm amazed to find most Mandarin speakers I mention/show it to don't recognise this character. Little surprise since it's a formal word for an ancient sort of war flag.

While I believe it would not be advisable to suggest this to a beginner or intermediate learner (such as myself) as an acceptable preposition combination, I myself fully intend to mention, discuss and come to fully understand this term (起去) and am genuinely grateful for you introducing it to me. You obviously took my tone to be belligerent and so misunderstood my statement as sardonic/sarcastic.

Being somewhat of a bookish pedant myself, I love those same obscure research materials myself and devote a lot of time to finding and studying them.

In any case, what's done can't be undone. At the least I can try to watch my mouth in the future and not 开口伤人.

Aaand belatedly...(to quote myself again). The character '上' is missing from the lower passage.

//> To imply (again) that 起去 and 上去 once vied for linguistic

> superiority is confusing to me as well, since 起 means to rise

> in the sense of extend upwards, and [[HERE]]means to be physically

> on a platform/level, or above a platform/level.//

起伏 means literally to rise and fall or undulate, appears in the dictionary and is readily understandable from the inherent definitions of the two characters.

Perhaps I need a better understanding of 去 before I can begin to understand how it could come after 起.

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WangLongju

.

> I'm so sorry that you took such affront to my statements. Sadly

> enough there is no intonation that you can hear over my words

> to soften their meaning, and remove the doubt of sarcasm (as

> from the statement which you found 'condescending').

Yes, this is a danger of plain text. Emoticons help, but in their absence, one needs to be careful.

> Be that as it is, perhaps I should be more careful in selecting

> language that might be construed that way in the future. I see

> now that such language was unneccessary in the first place.

> My apologies.

Accepted.

> You obviously took my tone to be belligerent and so misunderstood

> my statement as sardonic/sarcastic.

Again, plain text does not deal with subtle tones very well. I, too, have had to learn to temper my comments, and I still don't do it perfectly well. Just for future reference, specifically, the words that struck a negative chord in my reading of your post were: nondescript, obscure, implied (in italics as in the original). In the final analysis, the post would probably have been less of an affront had these not been included.

In any event, here are a few more articles on -qi3qu4:

.

2003-LIUDaofeng-Qilai-Qiqu.pdf

2004-WANGCanlong-Qiqu.pdf

2005-XINGFuyi-Qiqu.pdf

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weiming

Thanks for being so forgiving. And thanks for the documents. I am currently downloading them for review

.

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