Guest shinjo17 Posted February 14, 2004 at 01:47 AM Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 at 01:47 AM How do you pronounce shi as in to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted February 14, 2004 at 02:03 AM Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 at 02:03 AM shi4. It sounds like "shit" without the t, and the tone drops from "sol" to "do" very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest full_of_errs Posted February 14, 2004 at 03:05 AM Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 at 03:05 AM its hard to discribe , isnt it ? any1 who is so kind can record it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
confucius Posted February 14, 2004 at 06:56 AM Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 at 06:56 AM I was going to suggest something like Skylee, only using the word "shirt" without the "rt" instead. (If you are in Beijing, then just dropping the "t" would be sufficient.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markalexander100 Posted February 14, 2004 at 07:47 AM Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 at 07:47 AM its hard to discribe ' date=' isnt it ?any1 who is so kind can record it ?[/quote'] It's in some of the phrases at http://www.chinaadviser.com/useful_chinese_phrases.html , although that's a pretty hellish site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
林彪 Posted February 15, 2004 at 07:08 PM Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 at 07:08 PM Here is a recording: http://66.194.40.147/~hapafor/shi.wav When it is part of a sentence it is said more quickly than it is in the recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted February 16, 2004 at 04:36 PM Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 at 04:36 PM Taiwanese and many others pronounce Shi as a lengthened "-ss" in Kiss. This is not PRC standard Mandarin though. Also, Shi4 in standard Mainland Mandarin doesn't sound like the sh- in shit nor shirt either. The Shi4 sound is formed with the tongue curled back so that it touches (or almost touches) the bony ridge behind the upper front teeth. To practice, you should first pronounce it close to the English "sh" (say "she"), then slowly curl the upper tip of your tongue towards the the hard plate of the roof of your mouth.. you'll find yourself sucking in air.. now expire air forcefully and you get the Standard Mandarin sound Shi4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted February 17, 2004 at 02:17 AM Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 at 02:17 AM Ala's account sounds good but there is sth missing at the end isn't there? It's what Confucius was getting at with his shirt idea. Is it called r-colour (rings some bell)? Anyone know what I'm on about? There's a definite r feeling at the end. Then of course there *is* a vowel! Perhaps it's a vocalic r, if there is such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometrue Posted February 17, 2004 at 03:59 AM Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 at 03:59 AM Ala's account sounds good but there is sth missing at the end isn't there? It's what Confucius was getting at with his shirt idea. Is it called r-colour (rings some bell)? Anyone know what I'm on about? There's a definite r feeling at the end. Then of course there *is* a vowel! Perhaps it's a vocalic r' date=' if there is such a thing.[/quote'] yep! there is a vowel, i just realize it's really a strange vowel, you can try to pronounce sh-日（ri), then you will get it. i would say the "i" is not so scientific here, perhaps we should have added one more vowel in hanyupinyin system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted February 17, 2004 at 06:47 AM Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 at 06:47 AM http://www.sinosplice.com/lang/pronunciation3.html This link has pretty detailed explanations of the x,c, j, i and sh, ch, zh, r.. It is funny that most Shanghainese speakers do not pronounce the pinyin "x" or "j", and instead pronounce it much closer to the English sh and j (for both Mandarin and Shanghainese). Most are not aware of the difference (though it becomes crystal clear when listening to Old Shanghainese). Once in English class in China, I remember mentally making note that the English "she" is pronounced exactly like "xi" or "xi4".... years later was told by a Beijinger that I pronounced Mandarin xi incorrectly. .... but the difference at least to me is subtle, and will not impede at all to communication. Pronouncing z for zh, s for pinyin sh, c for ch may cause more problems for northern Mandarin speakers, but should still be understandable. don't know that the retroflex is a vowel.... regardless, "ri"4 is one hard-to-pronounce syllable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted February 17, 2004 at 07:05 AM Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 at 07:05 AM > don't know that the retroflex is a vowel well, put like that... but every Chinese syllable has a vowel doesn't it? (I take it retroflex means voicing? otherwise no tone available on shi4 - in the bopomofo paradigm I think it's supposed to be the voiceless equivalent of 'ri', as 'chi' is to 'zhi', but that's rubbish really, right?) Cometrue, 'i' represents lots of different things in Pinyin. But you can always differentiate from adjacent letter context, there's never any ambiguity. In fact, there's redundancy: the y in 'yi' is not necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometrue Posted February 17, 2004 at 08:35 AM Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 at 08:35 AM > Cometrue' date=' 'i' represents lots of different things in Pinyin. But you can always differentiate from adjacent letter context, there's never any ambiguity. In fact, there's redundancy: the y in 'yi' is not necessary.[/quote'] yeah, sure for me, a native speaker or for you, it's quite easy, but for those beginners it's a little bit confusing i think. how come the i matching "b d y j l m n p q t x y" and "c r z zh ch sh" has different regulations? the bopomofo is'nt a writing system, but just a tool to help people studying mandarin, so why the tool itself coudnt be improved to be less confusing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometrue Posted February 17, 2004 at 08:41 AM Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 at 08:41 AM i think if we create a new symbol for the vowel after "c r z zh ch sh" and provide some special practicing or exercising, it won't be cofused again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted February 18, 2004 at 01:46 AM Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 at 01:46 AM > think if we create a new symbol for the vowel after "c r z zh ch sh" > you can try to pronounce sh-日（ri), then you will get it yes, and when I did that I concluded that the vowels in shi and ri are different. ri has something of 'u' in it, so maybe it's closer than the vowel in shi or zhi. am I wrong? if no-one knows i'll try and look it up; but what are the phonetic features of the consonants r (in ri) and sh (other than that the latter is retroflex)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometrue Posted February 18, 2004 at 04:17 AM Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 at 04:17 AM > think if we create a new symbol for the vowel after "c r z zh ch sh"> you can try to pronounce sh-日（ri)' date=' then you will get it yes, and when I did that I concluded that the vowels in shi and ri are different. ri has something of 'u' in it, so maybe it's closer than the vowel in shi or zhi. am I wrong?[/quote'] i m not really good at this, but i m sure they are same vowels, just forget about somethin of "u", and then i believe that you will get a normal pronunciation of the vowel. it's a pity that i havent got an exercise online. if no-one knows i'll try and look it up; but what are the phonetic features of the consonants r (in ri) and sh (other than that the latter is retroflex)? i m not sure what did you exactly mean, sorry for my poor english... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted February 18, 2004 at 06:51 AM Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 at 06:51 AM Your English is fine, it's a technical question. Like 'p' is bilabial (the place of articulation is your two lips); plosive (the manner of articulation involves a puff of air); voiceless (the vocal cords don't vibrate when you make the sound, so it doesn't have any pitch). I don't know the Chinese words for these features. I thought maybe someone like Ala might know what the features are for 'r' and 'shi'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometrue Posted February 18, 2004 at 12:07 PM Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 at 12:07 PM Your English is fine, it's a technical question. Like 'p' is bilabial (the place of articulation is your two lips); plosive (the manner of articulation involves a puff of air); voiceless (the vocal cords don't vibrate when you make the sound, so it doesn't have any pitch). I don't know the Chinese words for these features. I thought maybe someone like Ala might know what the features are for 'r' and 'shi'. thank you smithsgj, but i m afraid i still couldnt understand it, lets see if anybody else would give us a response! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ala Posted February 19, 2004 at 05:50 PM Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 at 05:50 PM how come the i matching "b d y j l m n p q t x y" and "c r z zh ch sh" has different regulations? the bopomofo is'nt a writing system, but just a tool to help people studying mandarin, so why the tool itself coudnt be improved to be less confusing? Bopomofo (I presume you mean Zhuyin Fuhao) is not confusing at all and was well designed for Mandarin. pinyin zi, si, ci, zhi, shi, chi, ri are different from bi, pi, mi, ni, di, ti, etc.., and also different from xi, ji. In pinyin, we use "i" for all three purposes (mainly for lack of a better romanization), but in reality, the sounds are quite different. Hence, pinyin is the one that jumbles everything together, not bopomofo. Bopomofo does not add a vowel after the consonants z, s, c, zh, sh, ch, r. This is more logical and accurate. but every Chinese syllable has a vowel doesn't it? (I take it retroflex means voicing? otherwise no tone available on shi4 - in the bopomofo paradigm I think it's supposed to be the voiceless equivalent of 'ri', as 'chi' is to 'zhi', but that's rubbish really, right?) No, I believe syllables si, ci, zi, shi, chi, zhi, ri have no vowels. In Chinese they are referred as the 空韻. In reality though, even the pinyin "-i" after s, c, z, sh, ch, zh, r is allophonic. After dental (s,c,z), the "-i" is silent (vocalization of the preceding consonant instead); after retroflex (sh, ch, zh, r), the "-i" is a vocalization of the preceding consonant followed usually with an "-r" final. Hence, shi could perhaps be better romanized as shr. shi = voiceless fricative retroflex ri = VOICED fricative retroflex chi = voiceless aspirated affricate retroflex zhi = voiceless unaspirated affricate retroflex si = voiceless fricative dental ci = voiceless aspirated affricate dental zi = voiceless unaspirated affricate dental So yeah, shi and ri are different (in voiced/voiceless), but both are fricative retroflexes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometrue Posted February 20, 2004 at 02:51 AM Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 at 02:51 AM Bopomofo (I presume you mean Zhuyin Fuhao) i mean the han yu pin yin sysetem No' date=' I believe syllables si, ci, zi, shi, chi, zhi, ri have no vowels. In Chinese they are referred as the 空韻. In reality though, even the pinyin "-i" after s, c, z, sh, ch, zh, r is allophonic. After dental (s,c,z), the "-i" is silent (vocalization of the preceding consonant instead); after retroflex (sh, ch, zh, r), the "-i" is a vocalization of the preceding consonant followed usually with an "-r" final. Hence, shi could perhaps be better romanized as shr. [/quote']yeah, so that's why the han yu pin yin is not scientific, i realize that the s c z zh ch sh had vowels trend themself, dont you think thats confusing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted February 23, 2004 at 03:56 AM Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 at 03:56 AM ALa, cometrue By bopomofo I meant the learning system/strategy employed in both China and Taiwan (b p m f, d t n l etc). Irrespective of the actual symbols used (though I realize bopomofo is often taken to be synonymous with zhuyin fuhao outside China). I didn't realize zi and zhi were voiceless! Is this the standard view, or your own? I should have thought there was a vowel, 'i', which was neutral, like the schwa in "the". But even if it does represent the "vocalization of the preceding consonant" it still has its role, doesn't it? If you took the 'i' away, the vocalization would have to be represented by nothing. I don't know what vocalization means, actually. Is it that the consonant becomes voiced? Or that it becomes vowel-like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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