Marriage between cousins

[skylee]

Surfing aimlessly I've come across this thread (in Chinese) which raises a question that I have never thought about - Is it legal for cousins to get married in HK?

As far as I know, there are two types of cousins here - (1) 堂兄弟姊妹 (cousins whose fathers are brothers) and (2) 表兄弟姊妹 (cousins whose parents are related otherwise). It is mentioned on the thread that on Mainland China marriages between cousins are considered incest. And mainland people find such marriages disgusting. Is it true?

As far as I know, here in HK only marriages between type (1) cousins are considered incest. And the HK law quoted (Cap 181 Schedule 5) seems to allow marriages between all types of cousins.

And there are so many stories / TV dramas / films about type (2) cousins falling in love ...

Views?

[Senzhi]

As far as I know, children from fathers/mothers who are brothers/sisters are called nephews/nieces. Only with less close family relations are they associated as cousins.

Marriage between nephews and nieces is in general illegal everywhere, for the simple fact that children coming from such marriages have a substantial higher risk of having dissabilities. It's a pure biological thing, also encountered in between animals and plants.

However, if the relationship is further away from the original 'bloodline' - and thus so-called cousins - there should be little issue ... and a lot of countries will allow such a marriage.

Of course, there's also the moral and cultural aspect to be considered. If the cousins have a close bond within the family, it might be considered inappropriate to marry.

[roddy]

They're still your cousins. Your father's brother's son is your cousin, but your father's nephew. Then you get a whole load of firsts and seconds and removes and it all gets complicated. In the UK you can marry any cousin you want to legally, but I think it would be frowned upon socially to marry a first cousin - at least considered a bit odd?

[Senzhi]

Roddy,

I would still call my father's brother's sons my nephews and his daughters my nieces. They're all based in the South-East of London, and they also call me their nephew.

However, my grandfather's brother's children call me their cousin.

Could it be that it differs regionally?

[roddy]

There's a couple of references to it maybe being an archaic usage here. Never seen it used like that though. To me nephews and nieces are very definitely a generation below you.

Poor Skylee. She wants a discussion about cousins and marriages and incest, and we come up with 'so what does cousin mean?'

[BrandeX]

I've come across some unusual usages speaking with a couple of my chinese friends (I only know english currently). One I have found common is calling the cousins "brother-in-law" and "sister-in-law". When I first came across this unusual usage with my girlfriend, I had to stop her and go over for about 5 minutes what she was talking about since she clearly isn't married. She meant "cousin" but said in school/english books/whatever they were never taught this word and it is written to say "in-law", or also niece/nephew.

[zozzen]

Marriage between any type of cousins (堂兄妹 or 表兄妹) is not illegal in Hong Kong.

Hong Kong's crime ordinance only states that incest between brother and sister is prohibited. According to the definition in Section 49, Chapter 200, "brother" and "sister" can also mean half-brother and half-sister, but not cousins. (同父異母的兄弟姐妹及同母異父的兄弟姐妹在內)

Please take a look:

Chapter: 200 Title: CRIMES ORDINANCE Gazette Number:

Section: 49 Heading: Test of relationship Version Date: 30/06/1997

在本部中，“兄弟”(brother) 及“姐妹”(sister) 分別包括同父異母的兄弟姐妹及同母異父的兄弟姐妹在內；不論被控犯本部所訂罪行的人與指稱罪行發生在其身上的人之間的親屬關係是否循合法婚姻追溯，本部條文均適用。 (將1916年第3號第4條編入。由1924年第5號第13條修訂)

In this Part, "brother" (兄弟) and "sister" (姐妹) respectively include half-brother and half-sister, and the provisions of this Part shall apply whether the relationship between the person charged with an offence under this Part and the person with whom the offence is alleged to have been committed is or is not traced through lawful wedlock. (3 of 1916 s. 4 incorporated. Amended 5 of 1924 s. 13)

Edit: After looking at the link provided by Skylee about Cap 181, I get lost now.

[HashiriKata]

Marriage between any type of cousins (堂兄妹 or 表兄妹) is not illegal in Hong Kong.

The same in the UK. I think this may have to do with the fact that HK and UK are (or were ) related.

[Quest]

Marriage between nephews and nieces is in general illegal everywhere, for the simple fact that children coming from such marriages have a substantial higher risk of having dissabilities. It's a pure biological thing, also encountered in between animals and plants.

That may be a myth:

http://www.cousincouples.com/info/facts.shtml

Fact: Children of non-related couples have a 2-3% risk of birth defects, as opposed to first cousins having a 4-6% risk. Genetic counseling is available for those couples that may be at a special risk for birth defects (e.g. You have a defect that runs in your family) In plain terms first cousins have at a 94 percent + chance of having healthy children. Check the links section for more information on genetic counselors. The National Society of Genetic Counselors estimated the increased risk for first cousins is between 1.7 to 2.8 percent, or about the same a any woman over 40 years of age.

I think the major reason cousins don't marry each other is due to culture more than anything else. I personally find some of my cousins attractive, but I know it would be frowned upon by the family to have a relationship with them. I also find it odd that HK dramas keep promoting first cousin relationships.

[skylee]

And is such a marriage banned on the Mainland? Is it illegal there (as suggested in the thread I quoted in #1)?

How about in Taiwan?

[cdn_in_bj]

And is such a marriage banned on the Mainland? Is it illegal there (as suggested in the thread I quoted in #1)?

Though this doesn't answer your question, you may find this article interesting:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,250060,00.html

[roddy]

From the 婚姻法

　第七条 有下列情形之一的，禁止结婚：

　　(一)直系血亲和三代以内的旁系血亲；

As I understand that, it means you can't marry a first cousin - ie anyone you share a grandparent with.

[Quest]

I don't think you can marry first cousins in China. However, I heard that cousin marriage is frequent in Hmong culture.

[studentyoung]

And is such a marriage banned on the Mainland?

This kind of marriage is banned in mainland China, so that the next generation can improve their health through avoiding genetic diseases caused by intermarriage (近亲结婚).

What’s more, marriage between cousins from father’s side (堂兄妹) is called “incest 乱伦” in traditional Chinese culture, which can cause enough moral and social pressure on the relationship.

Thanks!

[zozzen]

I don't think marriage between first cousins is immoral, but I admit that it looks so strange.

They share the same surname, they come from the same family, they share the same grandparents. It's really like an incest.

[rezaf]

in the middle east the story is different. in my country untill maybe 50 years ago it was a must for many people to marry their (first)cousins and families would put a lot of pressure on their sons to encourage such marriages. due to the health reasons the culture has changed a lot but still you can find it's traces.

[skylee]

I read on the newspaper the other day that tycoon Li Ka Shing's wife was his cousin. She was the daughter of his mother's brother.

[asialinks]

=> tycoon Li Ka Shing's wife was his cousin. She was the daughter of his mother's brother.

....quite a distant cousin....should not have much biological complication i think.....

[skylee]

....quite a distant cousin....

The daughter of his mother's brother = 舅舅的女兒. Very close relation, not a distant cousin at all.

[pianocynthia]

It was legal hundred years ago.

Now it is banned.

Though it still exists in a little remote areas in chinese country