When to introduce native material for learning / teaching?

[jkhsu]

In general, what are your thoughts about introducing native material to the teaching/learning of Chinese? At what point do you feel native material should be introduced? What are the advantages / drawbacks that you have encountered?

I started this thread because this discussion, which I think is important and warrants its own thread, was going off topic on another thread.

Quoting a poster from the previous thread

Areckx, I took your quote from the other thread. Hope you don't mind.

[Native material is] Writing/Film made specifically for native speakers, as in, not slowed down for learners. Most people think they need to work their way up to authentic material rather than jump right in.

I know this first hand from when I was struggling with Japanese. I kept on searching for "Learn Japanese" and "Teach yourself Japanese" books and films and didn't learn much, but as soon as I just jumped right in to authentic material, my learning skyrocketed. I finally decided to read manga, take off the English subtitles in anime, and now I don't even watch anime, because I've discovered that there is an entire world of Japanese outside of the anime zone. I would have never discovered it if I kept inside my bubble, I just jumped right in and listened, read, and my brain kicked in.

In my opinion, If you have extra time, getting exposed to native material is always a good thing, regardless of the level you are at. Watching Chinese movies, listening to music and the news are all good for exposure. However, my belief is that if you only have a limited amount of time for learning, trying to use native materials when you are not ready, won't bring you too much benefits and may even hinder your progress. I can see beginners or even intermediates trying to tackle reading that is way beyond their level with native materials. They end up looking up almost every word and trying to remember words they they won't see often because their reading is just not at that level yet. This creates frustration and often times, loss of interest. One of the benefts of "graded" learning is that at every level you feel some accomplishment and feel you can tackle the next level.

In my own experience, I spent years listening to Chinese music in my car. The result was that I could hum the tunes and maybe some words as well but have no idea what it meant. Without actually sitting down and learning, my Chinese wasn't getting any better. Recently, I started doing a lot more textbook reading and realized I can pick up words from the songs and read the Chinese subtitles of tv shows. I didn't listen to music or watch the shows to learn, I learned via graded textbooks and then used music and tv shows to reinforce what I learned. I will try to read some native / authentic text on the side but if I find my self looking up every other word in a sentence, I stop and realize I am not at that level yet. There are plenty of graded textbooks and other learning media online that go well into the advanced levels to help you feel that you've accomplished something without making you feel defeated.

[WestTexas]

Native listening material is quite hard for me, but I think attempting it is important. Since starting to work on native listening material more, I've noticed that while I still have a lot of trouble with movies and TV shows, I can understand Chinese people outside when they are talking to each other more easily. I definitely feel that a lot of the teaching material has overly clean, unnatural Chinese and that someone could study that stuff for years, maybe even make a good HSK score, and still not be able to watch movies in Chinese or understand Chinese people who were talking to each other on the street. Also,

There are plenty of graded textbooks and other learning media online that go well into the advanced levels to help you feel that you've accomplished something without making you feel defeated.

To me, it's not really 'advanced' unless it is for native speakers. That's what 'advanced' means to me. If you can't handle at least some native material you are still intermediate.

[rezaf]

If there is enough motivation then there will be no need for waisting time on graded books and one can directly go for the native stuff after a year or two.

[WestTexas]

If there is enough motivation then there will be no need for waisting time on graded books and one can directly go for the native stuff after a year or two.

This is pretty much how I feel. Also, using native material is manlier.

[jkhsu]

I'm learning Chinese outside of China (in the USA) so I can only speak from that experience here.

I am wondering why is there so much animosity toward graded textbooks? These were designed by professors who teach Chinese for a career to help students learn. The other thing I like about them is that the vocabulary is listed for easier learning; many now have CDs with audio. Also, the good textbooks will periodically include vocabulary you have learned in later chapters to reinforce memory. The ones I am using are from these series (listed below). Personally, I like the Princeton series and Cheng and Tsui the best. The 汉语教程 (BLCUP) books I got from Shanghai were pretty boring.

Princeton University Press

http://press.princet...ries/plpmc.html

Cheng & Tsui

http://www.cheng-tsu...tbooks/advanced

This is also a good textbook

http://yalepress.yal...isbn=0300104634

Beijing Language and Culture University Press

http://www.blcup.com/en/

Also, when you get to the advanced level textbooks, the text are taken directly from newspapers and literature. I estimate that after you have finished all of the "advanced" textbooks, you'll be right about the beginning of 4th grade primary school in China (in reading only). You can then start reading stories for young adults and work through novels, magazines and newspapers.

I'm not the one who invented graded learning. I would love to pick up a newspaper now and read it but I'll be reading my iPad dictionary app more than the newspaper.

[WestTexas]

I don't like graded textbooks because they aren't the real thing. It's like drinking beer that doesn't have alcohol in it or reading the abridged version of a Shakespeare play. When I started learning Chinese I didn't think to myself "If I study hard for a few years I'll be able to use an advanced-level graded reader." No, I thought that in a few years I'd be reading actual Chinese material. To me it just seems natural that someone would like to move on to native material as soon as possible. I guess if I had a graded reader that had real newspaper articles along with explanations of a few difficult points I would use it, but since I live in China I'd rather walk outside my door and pick up a real newspaper that concerns stories from my area.

For me, one of the most important aspects of language learning is that it gives you a window into another culture. As long as you are reading graded readers, you are basically, IMO, getting an adulterated taste of Chinese culture. That's just how I feel though.

[xiaotao]

If native material is what you want, you can try Chinese readers for Chinese children. They usually have about 12 levels and no English. Don't get the kind for oversea Chinese because they are not as challenging.

[imron]

one can directly go for the native stuff after a year or two.

I'm sure in the preceding years before going 'directly' to the native stuff, some people might find graded readers quite useful

I agree though that going for native stuff as early as possible is a good idea, but it's important to make sure it's within your level (or not too far above it).

[Silent]

What does 'go for native stuff' mean? I think it's pretty much pointless to start out with reading the classics. Books aimed at children are also designed for language development. So what's the difference with graded readers? I would expect the main difference to be the subjects. Children's books are usually about things children find interesting. Graded readers tend to have subject where language learners tend to be interested in. Often about the country and it's culture. I see little point in going directly for native reading material.

It may be a different story for spoken material. If you are exposed to spoken material you get used to the sound of the language and learn to distinguish them. I doubt however it has real added value as study materials. Other ways to learn speech may be far more effective when you start out learning. If you use native material as non-study material it may be beneficial though. I at least feel it's beneficial to watch Chinese movies with English subtitles as it's great to relax and at the same time some of the Chinese learned is reinforced and augmented.

One important consideration about using native material is motivation. It may motivate or demotivate you. If you see progressing your self it can be very motivating. An important factor for me to keep up with SRS was that I saw readily increase the amounts of characters I recognised in native material. For French the native material demotivated me. At the end of 3 years of high school study I didn't understand a thing of what was said at a Paris air show. Consequently I avoided all French until I found myself back in France 10 years later and discovered that my French was enough to get around comfortably.

From these experiences I conclude it's important to see/hear native material on a regular basis from the moment you start learning. When you start out you won't expect to understand any of the native material and it is motivating when you do understand only a very little. When advancing over time you can 'measure' the progress in the amount of native material you understand. At the same time you keep getting reality checks so you won't get too disappointed about what you can do with your language skills when you put it to practical use.

[imron]

What does 'go for native stuff' mean?

To me, it means anything that a Chinese person might use in their normal life, but in a broader sense, I would also accept it to mean anything that doesn't use any language besides Chinese. I therefore have no problem with graded readers and think they are a good way to bridge the gap between textbook learning and native material like newspapers, magazines, novels, etc. Learning from material of an appropriate difficulty level is also important. Personally I don't see myself getting to the classics for a few years yet.

[rezaf]

I don't remember saying anything about the classics. Native material can also mean magazines and not very complicated books. In my first 2 years, I had only read my textbooks which gave me a feeling that I was doing fine but when I started my tcm degree here and had to read and memorize medical textbooks then I realized how low level my Chinese was. Those books were pretty much way above my level but it was either that or failing the tests. So I used my dictionary and did my best in catching up with the class. After a semester or so I had very little problem with the textbooks and I could easily read magazines and newspapers, things that I never even dared to look at when I was just studying Chinese. I don't think I could have advanced so fast if I had just continued studying those graded Chinese books.

[jiacheng]

I personally prefer graded readers. Even though I have a reasonably large vocabulary, I don't consume that much native material other than what I encounter in passing in my daily life here. The primary reason is because of my short attention span. I find that if there are too many words that I am unfamiliar with in a passage, I tend to lose concentration very easily. With a graded reader, I can easily preview the new vocabulary and then read/listen to the passage with much less trouble. It may not be the most efficient learning method, but it fits my learning style well as I am seeing an albeit slow, but consistently upward trend in my level.

[Silent]

Rezaf, I think you pretty much point out what I tried to point out with my reference to classics and children's books comparison with graded readers. It's much more the level of the materials and the approach than whether it's native or not. Staying with too easy material won't improve your language skills. No matter whether it's native children's books you're reading or graded readers.

Jumping into classics and consequently reading your dictionary may work out very well, just as your jumping into tcm material worked out well. Unless you're really motivated it will be very hard to stay with it. So basicly it's a choice between a very tough, but quite effective approach however with high risk to drop out or a more easy and slower approach with a better chance to stay motivated to put in the work. The trap with graded readers, but also with children's books is that you stay with material that's too easy and consequently you only internalise what you know but don't really learn much new.

If you define native material as the target material you want to learn to understand/produce than I say using native material from day one is a very good idea. If only to give you a reality check of where your language skills are. It will prevent you from getting disappointed as I was with my French and you when starting to read the tcm books. For real study you need books of the right level. That means books where you have to put in a real effort to read, but are not that hard that you drop out.

[Pingfa]

Personally I went through FSI Chinese module 1-6 and dabbled in a few other beginner's material, with a little Mandarin radio on the side and a Mandarin movie occasionally.

Then I learned directly from native material.

Personally I recommend this way. Go through a beginner's course and learn the basics, then dig in - there's no better way to be Chinese than to be Chinese. I don't believe one can learn Mandarin from an hour or two a day; it would certainly take a long long time, that's for sure. So I recommend as much exposure as possible. Personally I keep up a near constant immersive environment. I'm either reading a Chinese manga, book, article, playing a Chinese game or watching something in Mandarin with Chinese subtitles.

Nowadays motivation isn't an issue for me because I don't see learning Chinese/Mandarin as a chore. I've made it an essential part of my life. I think of it kind of like being a kid again - who cares if I can't understand it all? I'm enjoying myself. Learning new things is a bonus ;-)

[jkhsu]

I don't believe one can learn Mandarin from an hour or two a day; it would certainly take a long long time, that's for sure.

A lot of people who are learning Mandarin outside of China have about that much time if they are lucky. I definitely think it is possible to a certain level. That certain level however, is subjective but in my mind is high enough for most people to be content. You can see my thread on a similar topic:

http://www.chinese-f...tside-of-china/

Personally I don't see myself getting to the classics for a few years yet.

imron, this worries me. I guess, I'd better plan to push out my schedule for getting to the classics myself Or follow rezaf and jump in with a dictionary.

[imron]

jkhsu, I just don't like to be spending all my time looking up stuff in a dictionary so I want to get my Chinese to a point where I can read them well enough to enjoy what's going on without needing to look up too many new words outside of what gets explained in whatever annotated version I choose to read. My plan is to read progressively more difficult stuff, building up vocabularly and familiarising myself with grammatical structures used in non-modern writings, and then when I've got a decent level start to tackle them. This approach worked well for me when reading 金庸, and it's not a bad approach to take in general. It's basically the same principle behind graded readers - pick stuff that is at an appropriate level for you (appropriate being at or slightly above your reading ability) and gradually increase the difficulty.

I wouldn't recommend an English learner to jump into Shakespeare straight away, or even until after they had a serious number of other authors under their belt. The same applies to Chinese.

[renzhe]

Sorry for the bump, I was gone for a while.

Personally, I think that graded readers are a great idea, but there are few of them, and the ones I've seen were not terribly good, so that it was far less work to jump into real Chinese stuff than to look for the right reader for months.

With me, the reading went roughly like this:

Textbooks -> Doraemon -> Ranma 1/2 -> short stories and essays -> Jin Yong -> Ba Jin -> Lu Xun -> Water Margin

As you can see, there is a natural progression from artificial dialogues to comics, simpler stories, modern literature, all the way to very demanding stuff. In a way, this was also graded by difficulty, and I was only tackling stuff where I had a chance in hell of getting somewhere. At each stage, it was hard going initially, but improved with time.

The same thing applies to TV and movies, where there is virtually no good graded language teaching material. Graded language learning stuff would work fine, but in the absence of sufficient material, you can get most of the same effects by using real native speaker stuff and fighting your way through it.

[BertR]

For me the order was more or less like this:

Textbooks -> The Lady in the Painting (Chinese reader) -> Chinese Breeze readers (around 10 of those) -> Graded Chinese Reader 3 -> Graded Chinese Reader 1 -> Graded Chinese Reader 2 -> Lots of articles -> Texts in NPCR 5 (these are abridged Chinese texts) -> Ba Jin

I studied some material in parallel (for example I started reading Ba Jin's Jia before starting NPCR5, but finished the latter much earlier) and have never really stopped using textbooks (currently going through Boja Chinese). I also started reading some books that I've never finished (for example some comics that I didn't find that interesting).

From starting to read "The Lady in the Painting" to finishing Ba Jin's Jia I've spent around 2 years (I have a full-time job, family and so on).

[jkhsu]

I studied some material in parallel (for example I started reading Ba Jin's Jia before starting NPCR5, but finished the latter much earlier) and have never really stopped using textbooks (currently going through Boja Chinese).

This is a really good strategy and something that I'm starting to do as well - reading both textbooks and native material. In my opinion (good) textbooks offer great examples and explanations that I don't get from just reading native materials and a dictionary.

The same thing applies to TV and movies, where there is virtually no good graded language teaching material. Graded language learning stuff would work fine, but in the absence of sufficient material, you can get most of the same effects by using real native speaker stuff and fighting your way through it.

I agree. For TV, movies and music, it's best to just use native material. I'm doing song translation on the side as supplementary learning. Unfortunately, many lyrics are written "poem like" and difficult to translate. But as you say, fighting through it is sometimes the best way to learn.

[abcdefg]

I use textbooks and graded readers for "core material" and venture into Chinese TV series and film for fun. Even if I only understand a fraction of the latter, it also gives me conversation material for interacting with my Chinese friends here (in China.)