Long term self-study in China: what are my visa options?

[Ludens]

I'm planning on moving to China for at least 2 years of full time study. However, I don't want to go to a University. The more I read (conflicting posts) about visa, the more concerned I get that my plan might not be feasible.

I've read a lot of threads on this forum about visa, and I think some of my options would be:

• Attend a private school for a few hours a day/week to get a student visa. This was my original plan, and still what I'm hoping for. Some people in older threads say it's easy to get a one year student visa this way; others say it's impossible to get a student visa from attending a private school. Who is right?
  
• Get involved with dodgy visa agents. The posts that I've read on this route are always ambiguous and non-informative. I would consider this, if only I would know what the options actually are. Are these visa agents able to get you a student (or work or whatever long-term) visa without any proof that you are studying/working in China? If not, what can they do? What are the risks, and how serious are these? What are your experiences with this?
  
• Get multiple tourist visa. This would be the worst option; as I'm planning to stay for 2 years or more, and visa runs every 3 months would be very inconvenient and expensive. As far as I've read, it seems unlikely to get 90 day tourist visa in Hong Kong. If it was possible to get 90 days visa in Hong Kong, it would still be a pain, but a bit more realistic: 90 days + two 30 day extensions means a visa run every 5 months. Any experiences on this?
  
• Get a job (and a work visa). Well, I'm planning on saving enough money to live a frugal life in China for some time without having to work. But if it would really be the only option to stay in china long term, I would consider teaching English. However; I'm not a native speaker, and don't have any teaching experience. I've read some people say that this doesn't mean you can't get a teaching job in China. However I'm not sure how realistic these reports are, and how easy it would be to get a job. I have a bachelor's degree in art, so I don't think any other jobs would be an option (suggestions welcome though).
  
• Attend a university program. As I said; I would rather not. I prefer the freedom of self-study and private tutoring.
  

Some additional info: I have a strong preference for Beijing, but would also consider other cities. I'm from Europe, which means a 1 year multiple entry visa is not an option. I'm currently saving up for this project, I won't have lots of cash so I'm also looking for the cheapest option.

So, what are your thoughts and suggestions? Any advice is more than welcome!

[roddy]

On private schools - they can't get you student visas, but they may be able to write invitation letters for F visas - often called business visas, although 'visiting' is a better translation. That's a perfectly legit option for studying. Some private schools may be able to get student visas, perhaps through a close relationship with a university. I've recently been in touch with Hibicc.com, which says it is the only private school in Beijing that can get student visas directly - I don't know anything about them, may be worth a look.

Visa agents - dodgy, but if you're not actually working, perhaps less dodgy. I'm not sure what the situation is now, but last time I had to do this it was getting increasingly difficult and expensive. Thebeijinger.com forum usually has an active topic on this. The problem here is that you're at the mercy of visa whims - the PSB decide to have a crackdown just as you're coming up for renewal, or your agent gets busted while holding your passport, and you're in for a bit of hassle.

Tourist visas - like you say, a hassle. Judicious choice of location can help - Chiang Mai consulate will give out a two 90 day stay tourist visa.

Working - to be honest, if you can get one, a low-hours university teaching job might not be that bad. Visa problem solved in one swoop, free accommodation - and in Beijing that could be quite a bit of money saved - and spending money. Sign up for a semester at first in case it doesn't work out, but if it does, you're set for the two years. Teaching is obviously going to impact on your studying, but so would fretting about visas and rent.

[jkhsu]

After reading your post, I am wondering why you are so opposed to attending a university program? Here are my thoughts based on your post: Your goal is to learn Chinese but money is of a concern. If you learn privately, you'll probably end up paying more in the long term. If money was not of a concern and you wanted a lot of freedom (say to travel to different parts of China, etc) on a whim, then I would say don't do the university program. But from what I gather, it seems like you want to live very frugal and don't want to do the HK visa runs. The other option is what roddy mentioned and get a university teaching position if you can.

Personally, I almost wished I did sign up for a university program when I had the chance rather than try to do my own thing. While how much you learn is dependent on your own will and hard work, having that pressure from classes as well as having teachers there to help, is a benefit in my mind.

Adding: I know this may not be possible but if I could have done something like an IUP, I would have jumped on the opportunity. I know IUP is expensive and exclusive but if there was something like that, I'd do it in a flash back then (not now as I have too many responsibilities back in the USA).

http://ieas.berkeley.edu/iup/

[Erbse]

Join the cheapest university course available and then just don't attend class.

edit: I think I heard of some universities offering 1 on 1 classes. No sure though.

[Brandon-Learn Chinese]

On Private Schools: Some schools can provide the X or F visa. The school I am partnered with does both, but its also because we tutor and train a lot of government related affiliates. However, many schools still go through a middle man or agent, but as long as you are studying this is a relatively low risk option.

On Working: If you can get a Z- Visa (working) then that's not bad but you are more committed to that school so keep up a good relationship with them. If you want to transfer the Z to another job that process is relatively simple rather then changing from a L,X, or F to a Z-Visa. However, this would probably kill your hopes for a lot of traveling as most places would have a minimum expectation of hours worked which might get in the way of your plans.

Visa Agents: Absolutely dogy but widely used. While I have not heard any bad stories about using a visa agent the risk remains the highest. Although, these agents most likely are the same agent's your school uses. L, X, F are safer options for the agent. The Z in my opinion is the riskiest way to go because that puts you in more of a position to be scrutinized. Again, I have heard no bad stories but I would hate to be the first one.

University Programs: Depending on the length of time you can get a F or X visa. If short term many Universities (Tsinghua and BLCU) will issue F-visas. For long term they will issue the X- Visa.

My recommendation: If you are serious about learning the language then just go do it. Get the student (X) Visa. Go through either a private school or University. I came to teach first and then study. I ended up not studying that much and my Chinese is not close to the level it should be after 2 years in Beijing. Make it your goal. Study first, sign up for a program. If you study in a private school it can be cheaper then the University with less students. However you don't get the real student experience this way. Most people I know do both. Study in the University program, take a couple private lessons, and then teach English on the weekends or at night. You really have enough time to do it. So by teaching English you pay for your school and by enrolling into a long term program you are committed to the language. So you finish your experience with some cash, Chinese language ability, and because of many holidays, travel experience.

[yellowpower]

what is your end goal or specific goals in wanting to learn Mandarin in China? Is it for university studies in China in the future, or is it to secure a full-time job, etc? And have you learned Mandarin before? Or is it to kill time in China?

Some thoughts for you to consider

[jkhsu]

I ended up not studying that much and my Chinese is not close to the level it should be after 2 years in Beijing.

This point is right on. Make that your enemy. It's too easy in China, especially in the big cities like Beijing and Shanghai to get by without knowing much Chinese at all. You end up after two years still at the "intermediate" level where you can sort of read the newspaper but miss the main points, sort of converse with people but can't hold any significant conversation dealing with more abstract topics, etc.. This is where most people are stuck at.

[Ludens]

Roddy; thanks for all the info! Are these business / visiting visas that schools can provide long-term? If so, that's great news. Thanks also for the link to the school, it seems pretty legit. The visa agents also seem to be an option, at least as a last resort.

Working - to be honest, if you can get one, a low-hours university teaching job might not be that bad. Visa problem solved in one swoop, free accommodation - and in Beijing that could be quite a bit of money saved - and spending money.

Doesn't sound that bad indeed. However, as I said I'm not a native speaker, and can't imagine a university to employ a non-native speaker without teaching experience to teach English.

Jkhsu:

After reading your post, I am wondering why you are so opposed to attending a university program? Personally, I almost wished I did sign up for a university program when I had the chance rather than try to do my own thing.

Why do you almost wish that? I'm not opposed to university programs, it's just that I don't like large classes and don't like to adapt my pace of learning to others. I don't like to be (socially) pressured into learning, my motivation and discipline seems to be highest when I'm studying only 'for myself'.

That said, I haven't ruled out universities completely. I'm just wondering what the benefits of a university would be as opposed to a private school. Costs seem to be about the same; but the private schools have much smaller classes, which would seem beneficial to me.

Brandon, thanks for replying.

If you study in a private school it can be cheaper then the University with less students. However you don't get the real student experience this way. Most people I know do both. Study in the University program, take a couple private lessons, and then teach English on the weekends or at night. You really have enough time to do it.

What do you mean with 'the real student experience'? I'm not specifically looking to socialize with other students/non-natives; and I've had the 'student experience' for 4 years in my home country already. I'm just looking for the best way to improve my Chinese.

I've already travelled (without Chinese language ability) a lot in China and I wouldn't care if a job would prohibit me from travelling. But again, I think that I don't classify for a teaching job as I'm not a native English speaker.

Yellowpower:

what is your end goal or specific goals in wanting to learn Mandarin in China? Is it for university studies in China in the future, or is it to secure a full-time job, etc? And have you learned Mandarin before? Or is it to kill time in China?

I haven't really studied Mandarin before: last year I had private classes in Beijing for 3 months, but as I was travelling I didn't study very serious. the last 7 months I've been self-studying quite serious for 5-10 hours daily. I'm studying for pleasure, just to learn the language. I like to be in China. I'm not really the career type. I might never leave China again and take up another study in China or I might move somewhere else after I've learned the language. My end-goal would be to really know the language inside-out, my mid-term goal would be to be comfortable both in writing and conversation. If there would be a language specific job opportunity in the back of my mind, it would be translating.

So, with all this information, what do you girls and guys think?

[jkhsu]

@Ludens: I think you have given us a good idea of what you are looking for. I have one more question, can you define what it means for you to have 'learned the language"? What are some things you'd like to be able to do when you have achieved that level?

Edit: Sorry nevermind, I missed the point you said you wanted to know the language "inside-out".

Based on what you have said, my suggestion is to do a combination of University, private tutor / program and self study. The benefits of a University program (in addition to getting you a visa which is what you wanted to do with this post) is that you are part of an environment where you can have access to multiple language resources. You have the option of making friends with foreign students from your classes and native Chinese who are perhaps learning English in the University.

Also, I am troubled by your statement about not caring to socialize with non-natives. One of the best experiences I've found while I was in China (in Shanghai) was that I was able to make friends with people from many different countries much easier than say in the USA. As a foreigner in China, you're almost part of this International group and that was a rewarding experience in itself. The second important point I want to stress is don't overlook the importance of having friends from your part of the world in China. When you run into problems, you might want to have friends who you can relate to and really understand you. I don't know what other people's experiences are but other than making friends with say your tutor and those of the opposite sex, how many foreigners make really close friends (that you can trust) with Chinese natives of the same sex (especially for guys) in China?

[roddy]

I have one more question, can you define what it means for you to have 'learned the language"? What are some things you'd like to be able to do when you have achieved that level?

The guy's asking for visa advice, not a quiz on his language learning motivations. He's written 'what are my visa options' in the title and placed the topic in the Visa Issues sub-forum. I'm not sure of the need to second guess him, no matter how much he relishes the challenge.

Are these business / visiting visas that schools can provide long-term? If so, that's great news. Thanks also for the link to the school, it seems pretty legit. The visa agents also seem to be an option, at least as a last resort.

I don't know - the best bet is to ask a few. As for teaching as a non-native - you're not going to be anyone's first choice, but schools can get desperate. Trouble is, the desperate schools are usually desperate for a reason.

[yellowpower]

if you can find a chinese person and setlle down in China then most of the long term visa issues will be gone.

If you know or have any other European languages German, French, Spanish, etc...you can consider getting professional certification first before heading over, and find work related that would use one of those languages instead of English.

But from what you've shared maybe U should consider applying for some study scholarship for a university degree program in China. If you want to spend a lifetime there, investing 3 - 4 years to 'master' the language in practical ways (studies, friends, networking, etc) is a worthwhile investment.

[Ludens]

Jkhsu > Like Roddy, I'm not entirely sure why you're asking, but I don't mind replying either. Basically, with the vague phrase 'knowing the language' I mean being able to talk about any subject that I'd be able to talk about in my native language and to read any book that I'd be able to read in my native language, without consulting a dictionary every page. I do realize it's not likely I will reach this level with 2 years of study.

[roddy]

I don't mind replying either.

Fair enough, but there're plenty of existing 'what's the best way to study in China' discussions - mixing them up like this just means the actual topic gets diluted and people who might be interested miss the posts.

[Ludens]

yellowpower > planning on settling down with someone I might never meet doesn't sound too practical for now. I also didn't state I'll be spending a lifetime in China; I just don't know.

If you know or have any other European languages German, French, Spanish, etc...you can consider getting professional certification first before heading over, and find work related that would use one of those languages instead of English.

I do, but what kind of professional certification and what kind of jobs are you hinting at?

[jkhsu]

Ludens & Roddy, the reason I asked that was to know how serious you were about what level of Chinese you wanted to get to in China. I realized you had already answered it (please see my edited comments), so therefore I recommended the University option. Like I said, I've found (just from my own personal experience) that it was difficult to get to a high level, with just working with random tutors, etc. It can certainly be done and has been done, but just giving you my opinions. Hope that answers the question as to why I asked the question.

[yellowpower]

@Ludens

think you misunderstood the comment about marriage...meant that if you go over and fall in love with a local, and decide to get married at a later stage, etc...not suggesting that you rush into marriage or anything...

As for other European languages, am sure that companies from all over the world are there and maybe some will consider hiring someone who has other languages besides English. English teaching not the only option. If you have some certificate or professional exam to say that you have a certain level in a language (if it's not your mother tongue) that may help.e.g. French has the European framework of language proficiency exams or something to that effect.

All the best,hope things work out for you.

[roddy]

This site cracks me up sometimes. "I'd like to spend two years in China, what should I do?" - "Settle down with a Chinese person." You might as well suggest he enlists in the PLA. I don't want to be rude, and I appreciate you're trying to help, but if you don't have concrete info you're just confusing the issue.

As for non-English language teaching, the only positions that will allow enough time for proper study and come with a visa are going to be at the universities that do a lot of foreign language teaching - BFSU, for example. Might be worth a look, but there won't be many jobs. Translation or localization work will likely either be full time, or part time without a visa. You might get lucky, but you don't want to plan on it.

[Matty]

Some non-universities can get you X-Visas without need for a relationship with a university.

I'd like to know where in China you're planning to stay?

If it's Harbin, based on your wanting of small class sizes and freedom I'd recommend Bincai.

http://www.bincai.org/english/sub_02_202.asp

They're also the cheapest school I've managed to find so far that supplies visas and are quite friendly.

They do provide some free 1 on 1 tutoring by local unversity (in theory) student volunteers.

Over all I have had a good experience considering my goals, though I missed a lot of class.