Any feedback about getting a master's degree taught in chinese?

[Aphorisme]

Hi everyone!

 

It seems like most foreigners in China who are studying are studying chinese. But I find very few informations/ experiences about studying for a master's degree in for example medicine or law, entirely taught in chinese. The few informations that I found are stories of failures/ leaving China after a year. It seems like getting a master's degree entirely taught in chinese is a daunting task.

 

I'm curious about it as I plan to go to China to study chinese law (master's degree in economic law) in chinese for three years, and the more I will know about what is waiting for me, the better. I will take HSK 6 beforehand as well as finish my master's degree in economic law in my country (I will finish my fifth year next year), so neither chinese nor law will be totally new for me (I'm not saying my chinese is really good, and in my opinion HSK6 is overrated and can only show that I have enough basis to not be 100% lost, that's all).  

 

Has anyone tried to follow a master or a bachelor degree in medicine/ engineering/ law or anything else? Or heard about people who tried? How hard is it really? What were the hardest things to overcome ? Any advice about it? And what did you enjoy the most?

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Have a good evening !

[Angelina]

Writing. I never had problems with the lectures and participating, but I had major problems writing papers in Chinese. Improve your writing skills before you start your program. There are people who can be ok with submitting something that looks like a primary school student wrote it, there are others who might be ok with plagiarism, but I am too much of a perfectionist to do that. Therefore, I had problems. Chinese people can be a bit soft with international students, make sure you don't play on that card.

Apart from that, it has been fine, I didn't give up. I think I have learned things I would not have learned anywhere else. What more can you ask for?

[anonymoose]

I did a bachelor degree in medicine here.

 

Is it hard? That's a difficult question to answer. Is running a marathon hard? For those with the will, they will find a way. For many people, they would rather take a car than walk 100 metres.

 

I would only say that, yes, if you are determined, it is possible. But don't expect it to be given to you on a plate. And also don't expect that the educational quality will be high.

[gato]

What's your end goal? If it's to practice law, why not work as a lawyer in your home country first.

Quality of Chinese programs in the humanities and social sciences (which includes law) tends to be quite poor due to lack of academic freedom and the government's favoritism towards science and engineering. It's ok for improving your Chinese skills, but I wouldn't expect to learn too much in terms of the substantive material. But would the three years be worth it?

[Angelina]

Quality of Chinese programs in the humanities and social sciences (which includes law) tends to be quite poor due to lack of academic freedom and the government's favoritism towards science and engineering.

 

Definitely. Even if you feel free to say what you want, maybe the people around you won't be used to debating that much.

 

I have met some amazing Chinese people, but the atmosphere here is not the best in terms of meeting people you can talk to. I am not sure about law, I do know that grammar, for example, has been cut off from the school curriculum. My advisor told me that when he was young, there was a part of the 语文课 called 汉语 and Chinese children would learn basic things about grammar. Now, around China, school-age children are not learning any grammar. This has definitely affected their academic ability. How can you do research involving grammar when you haven't been taught the basics? This is what I know about my field.

 

The situation is the way it is. There are some people here who are trying. If you decide to study in China you should try to encourage debate and promote the rule of law. 

[ZhangKaiRong]

How hard it is mostly depends on the university. There are teachers who give foreigners a special treatment (which can mean either bad or good). Generally, in terms of academics, Chinese universities (even the ones that are considered good universities) are inferior to European or American universities, mainly due to the lack of freedom the others discussed above. IMO, Chinese masters are good if:

- you only have BA, and your BA is not a marketable one (no chance for getting an OK-ish job in your home country)

- you want to boost your CV with some Chinese exposure

- you want to improve your general Chinese skills

If your plan is to work in China, then you might reconsider spending another 2-3 years for a master, because it won't help you much. I don't know how old you are and what kind of work experience you have, but another issue is your age - you will have some problems finding a job in China if you are near to 30 but have no work experience.

[Aphorisme]

Thank you everyone for your answers!

 

Gato, yes my goal is to become a lawyer. If I plan to study chinese law, it's because I noticed that virtually zero foreign lawyer have studied chinese law. Among the foreign lawyers I met in China/ I heard of, few of them speak chinese at a decent level, fewer were able to read chinese law, and even fewer (almost zero) were able to conduct legal research in chinese (like reading articles about law, finding similar cases among numerous cases all written in chinese...which is way harder than just reading chinese law, which is not that hard). The thing is I believe that being able to conduct legal research is essential for a lawyer. I mean, if you can't, what can you do? You cannot be creative because you don't have the resources for, you are always relying on translators, you cannot have your own interpretation of law/ cases...how could someone become a good lawyer under that circumstances?

 

Nevertheless, practice seems to contradict my opinion, to the extent that you can see some lawyers going to china speaking zero chinese and publishing a book about chinese law two years after, then being considered as "experts in chinese law". But I believe that does not show that you can be a good lawyer in China without knowing chinese/ chinese law, but instead proves that there is a lack of high qualified (in both chinese and law) foreign lawyers in China, which lowers the standards of what is "a good lawyer". Can you imagine a chinese lawyer going to the US, not being able to speak english, an two years after publishing a book about american law? Which credibility would he enjoy ? Curiously, it seems to be accepted when foreign lawyers go to China, but not the other way round.

 

That's why I think that studying chinese law can give a real advantage over other lawyers. The ability to conduct legal research, a comprehensive knowledge of chinese laws, knowledge that is hard to obtain by just practicing (here is one advantage of theory over practice), that allow you to be creative and to find new ideas, a personal 关系, the understanding of how chinese lawyers are trained, a better understanding of your own law...I can see many advantages of studying chinese law ;) As I said, virtually zero foreign lawyers have studied chinese law at uni. It's either because it is useless, or because it's hard + you need to be able to speak chinese at the end of you studies in your home country, unless you are ready to study for more than 10 years in total. I would bet on the second explanation. But as no one can be sure about it, it's just a bet...so it's even more exciting, isn't it? 

Of course, feel free to disagree

Anonymoose, Angelina --> thank you for you advice. So If I understand well, I must be prepared to study a lot by myself if I want to feel satisfied with the educational level. And for sure I will try to encourage debate, as it is just the essence of a lawyer work.

 

ZhangKaiRong --> "If your plan is to work in China, then you might reconsider spending another 2-3 years for a master, because it won't help you much". Oh, why do you think that? I will be 21/22 at the end of my fifth year of law in France (depends if I graduate on june or july, and then 25 if I study three years in China), and my master in business law is considered as the best or at least among the best in France, with 100% employment directly after graduation with very well paid jobs. But I don't feel like working directly in big law firms, working on big cases, making a lot money, and then discovering than such a life has nothing exciting. In France we really care about diplomas. Once you've got a good diploma, the path is laid out. But why living a life if there is no surprise? I feel like specializing in Chinese law is way more unpredictable, with plenty of opportunities but also difficulties, obstacles to overcome, but at the end I believe that if you do succeed, you can deal with cases/ live situations that you would never have dreamed of. But maybe I'm wrong and chinese legal market is already overcrowded. If someone thinks so, please let me know (In France even though the legal market is really overcrowded, there are still opportunities to get very well paid jobs, so i guess nothing is really overcrowded provided that you are good enough).

[rezaf]

 

 

Has anyone tried to follow a master or a bachelor degree in medicine/ engineering/ law or anything else? Or heard about people who tried? How hard is it really? What were the hardest things to overcome ? Any advice about it? And what did you enjoy the most?

Pretty difficult but it seems that many people can do it. I remember in the second year we were doing 见习 at the respiratory division of a TCM hospital and our teacher gave us a long lecture on how to treat asthma.  After he finished one of my classmates who had only learned Chinese for around 9 months before the TCM school turned around and asked me “What is 哮喘？”. However even she could finish the school and get her degree so I guess there is always ways around everything. 

The most important thing that I have learned is to stop being a perfectionist. When I first started I wanted to "learn" as well as the Chinese students but very soon I realized that I had to change my priorities or I wouldn't be able to finish more than the first few chapters of the books by the end of the semester. However after two years or so as my Chinese got better I was able to shift the focus back to learning rather than passing tests.

Regarding writing, at first I was also a perfectionist and needed a long time to finish a simple paper but now I am just pragmatic and have no problems with writing like a primary school student as long as the job is done.

[gato]

The market for foreign lawyers in China is fairly small nowadays. There are thousands of Chinese law students and lawyers who study in law schools abroad every year before returning to work in China. Their English language skills range from very good to good enough. You need to think about your strengths compared to them. You won't be able to out-compete them in your Chinese skills or Chinese law knowledge. You are more likely to be able to gain a position if you have some experience working abroad as a lawyer first.

If you are more looking for an adventure, you might also consider Vietnam. France has a history there. It's a much less mature market, more like how China 20 years ago. Might be easier for a foreigner without significant work experience to find a niche there.

[Aphorisme]

Gato, after three years of studying chinese law I plan to come back to France to be a lawyer there first, for sure. Then I don't know whether I will live in France or in China. Only life will tell me (depending on the people i will met and opportunities I will come across). Curiously I guess that there are more opportunities for a foreign lawyer who is fluent in chinese in his home country than in China, along with the growth of Chinese overseas investments. 

 

Even in China, you say that the market for foreign lawyers is fairly small. But is it that hard to get a good job as a lawyer there? I mean, in France people say that the legal market is really competitive, quite impossible to get a good job as a lawyer etc etc. But my own experience is different: given that you did well at uni, big law firms will fight for you, and nothing will be easier than finding a job. As instance, right after graduating from French best business law degrees, students earn like 4.500 euros per month as interns for their first job (and that's a lot in France). So even if everyone saying: "it's so hard to be a lawyer nowadays", I feel like that is totally untrue provided that you are a good student, which is not that hard IMO if you enjoy studying law. Maybe it's hard for the majority of lawyers, but it's quite easy to get out of the majority. I wonder if it is the same in China.

 

Concerning the strengths compared to chinese students that have studied abroad, I would say creativity, rigor, and I think that you can compete with Chinese lawyers about Chinese law knowledge. Once you mastered the language, I can't see why you couldn't be better than chinese students at chinese law, specially if you received a very good legal education in your home country. I study chinese contract law (e-learning) with RenMin University to get used to chinese law before going to China, and on the related forum I have debated with Chinese students about chinese contract law (it was about the link between 所有权保留特约 and 标的物风险转移), and I was surprised by their inability to "play" with legal concepts, to connect different concepts that are taught separately. Of course it's just a small experience, but it has -for the moment- confirmed my thoughts. 

 

Maybe the market is bigger for foreign lawyers in China who are not from the US, as few chinese people come to France (as instance) so less chinese people speak french and know about french law. Of course, there are fewer deals between french companies and chinese ones than between american companies and chinese ones, but I guess in the end life is maybe easier for non-US foreign lawyers in China as they do not suffer of chinese students competition as much as american students do.

[anonymoose]

I think you're probably right that there aren't many Europeans studying Chinese law, but as for foreigners, there are lots, and with excellent Chinese skills. In fact, the undergraduate law course at Fudan University is oversubscribed by foreigners. It may be one of the few courses that is not easy to enter as a foreigner.

 

I suspect the situation is probably similar at other top Chinese universities.

[ZhangKaiRong]

If you're 21 or 22 when you graduate from law school, it means that you started it at 17. I didn't know in France you could start university before 18, this is why I supposed that you were around 23-25. Then time is not an issue, good for you. The Chinese also tend to care about diploma and university, but it's mainly an issue for Chinese students but not for foreigners (since you already have a diploma from another country). IMO it's not a good benchmark as a 学霸 not necessarily good at the actual job, especially not in China where the aim of studying is not for preparing for reality but for the goddamn exams and get the best marks possible.

Chinese consider government jobs are the best as those are the closest to free cash, and the best students mainly end up in government positions. Big corporations (investment banks, consulting companies, telecommunication companies) are only secondary, but still attract a lot of good students, who spend their summers working as interns for little or no money to show something practical on their CVs.

For foreign fresh graduates, it is still very hard to find a decent job, because from the Chinese employer's point of view you're still a risk even though your Chinese is okay, because you're a foreigner with no prior work experience. From your posts it was not clear for me whether you want to work in China or France first, but in the end it's the same: you need a decent 4-5 year work experience at least to have a chance for a decent job in China. And if you really want to work there, you could spend the three years at a good law firm instead of studying a master's in China.

[Angelina]

I don't think Aphorisme is looking for a job, or trying to increase her/his chances of getting a better paid job, or looking for a way to get a good job in China, or anything similar.

As far as I could see, OP is interesting in studying because she/he wants to learn something new. Obviously this can materialize later. You are right that you can't get a work visa to work in China unless you have some work experience. Maybe OP should know this before making a final decision. If you want to work in China, it's much better to get that exprerience somewhere else and come to China as an expert.

I once met some French-speaking Canadians who were studying law (bachelor's, full-time, taught in Chinese) at a famous university in Beijing. Their family is working with immigration law.

Here at Zheda, I live in the same dorm where graduate students of law live. Some of them are studying at programs taught in English (some of them are French, my friend is Indian), some of them at programs taught in Chinese (Japanese and Thai). My Japanese neighbor told me today how she wasn't able to complete her PhD and will have to stay here one more year. She is interested in legal history, it's not easy.

Also, a Chinese classmate of mine has already found a government job in Beijing.

[kdavid]

I did an MA in Ming-Qing history at HeiDa from 2011-14. I'm now finishing my first year of PhD coursework in the States.

 

You can find reflections on my experience in China here.

[Aphorisme]

Anonymoose --> "I think you're probably right that there aren't many Europeans studying Chinese law, but as for foreigners, there are lots". So, by foreigners you mean non-european students like korean/ japanese students, don't you?

 

Concerning undergraduate law courses at Fudan I don't know much. I just know that the Dean of Fudan that I met in my university in France told me that there were almost zero westerners studying law in Fudan in Chinese. But he was speaking of westerners, not asian foreign students, so it's consistant with what you said. Moreover, I don't know whether he was speaking of undergraduate or graduate courses, and I don't think he met all the students in Fudan either. I also imagine that foreigners who study chinese law at an undergraduate level have not studied law in their home country beforehand, for most of them at least (if they had, they would pursue a master's degree instead...it's just an assumption, but I think it's not illogical), which is IMO a questionable choice as in the end they will be specialized in chinese law but will know few about the law in their home country, which is not that good for finding a decent job !

 

As for graduate law courses at Fudan taught in chinese, international students are not accepted anymore. I'm 100% sure about it, and even before this closing, there were like zero westerner enrolled. I just met one american girl who did so (but their parents are chinese and chinese is her mother tongue as well as english), and she told me that she was the only one who was studying there as a graduate student and who was not from an asian country. 

 

 

ZhangKaiRong --> in France in general people begin university at 18, but some students have "skipped a year" while in primary school, so they can begin uni at 17 (for instance because they learnt how to read in two months instead of one year, so they "skip the rest of the year"). And I am one of them ;) 

 

Chinese consider government jobs are the best as those are the closest to free cash, and the best students mainly end up in government positions --> very interesting, I wasn't aware of it, thank you! 

 

ZhangKaiRong And Angelina --> I think I will follow your advice and work at least a few years in France before trying to get a job in China. But fore sure I will first go to China to sudy chinese law, because I really think that it can give a unique grasp of chinese law that I could not get just through practice, a unique resume and because it can shed a new light on my knowledge of french law. And as a law student, I just know one thing: law students/ teachers who have studied comparative law are just the best students/ teachers i have ever met because they have fully experienced the fact that law is an artificial system, and that it can be thought in an other way that you have been taught initially. Perfect for developing one's inventiveness. 

 

"I don't think Aphorisme is looking for a job, or trying to increase her/his chances of getting a better paid job, or looking for a way to get a good job in China, or anything similar. As far as I could see, OP is interesting in studying because she/he wants to learn something new" --> exactly, plus the fact than I'm also trying to find a road than can lead me to deal with very interesting cases

 

Kdavid, thank you for your insight. Your experience is truly amazing, you must be really courageous to choose to follow a chinese degree in a such complicated field. You have my respect. I really want to give it a shot too

[anonymoose]

Mainly Korean.

[gato]

You might want to talk to some people whose careers you'd like to model after to see what they think.

It's best to keep your expectations low.

If you do go, Beida and Tsinghua are probably the best choices because they have the best students and best faculty. Fudan's faculty is generally recognized as being mediocre, as it didn't have a law school until fairly recently. Tsinghua's law school is also only relatively, but it's so wealthy that they were able to recruit some of the best young academics to join the new school.

[Angelina]

ZhangKaiRong And Angelina --> I think I will follow your advice and work at least a few years in France before trying to get a job in China. But fore sure I will first go to China to sudy chinese law, because I really think that it can give a unique grasp of chinese law that I could not get just through practice, a unique resume and because it can shed a new light on my knowledge of french law. And as a law student, I just know one thing: law students/ teachers who have studied comparative law are just the best students/ teachers i have ever met because they have fully experienced the fact that law is an artificial system, and that it can be thought in an other way that you have been taught initially. Perfect for developing one's inventiveness. 

 

Sounds like a good idea. Good luck! Let us know what happens. 

 

My friend is a PhD student at Fudan, she told me she is the only non-Asian PhD student at their 中文系. Too bad you can't study law there. Maybe they had problems with the Korean students. 

 

 

@rezaf

Regarding writing, at first I was also a perfectionist and needed a long time to finish a simple paper but now I am just pragmatic and have no problems with writing like a primary school student as long as the job is done.

 

It's your choice. I would rather not graduate than get a degree from a Chinese university while my Chinese is not as good as the Chinese of university educated Chinese people. Of course, we live in the real world and you should be free to do what you want. 

 

(for instance because they learnt how to read in two months instead of one year, so they "skip the rest of the year")

 

You might also be able to learn how to read and write Chinese faster than other people. However, you still need to put some effort into learning it. Especially writing. I wish I had put more effort into improving my writing before I started my Master's. 

[rezaf]

 

 

I would rather not graduate than get a degree from a Chinese university while my Chinese is not as good as the Chinese of university educated Chinese people.

Educated native level fluency is almost impossible with less than a decade or two of hard work and so far I have only seen a small handful of learners who have got close. If you are a member of that club and your language ability is actually comparable to an educated Chinese then good for you but it is not necessary to spend so much time and energy on learning the language before entering the university unless you are in a field like Chinese literature. In my field memorizing and understanding hundreds of herbs, prescriptions, TCM classics as well as basic modern medicine is what makes you a professional and being able to write novels or poems in Chinese doesn't make much difference.

Life is not perfect and getting the priority right is the key to success. 

[Angelina]

Sure, it is more important to learn how be an actual TCM practitioner. However, do you think you can be a good one if you can't effectively communicate all your thoughts and experiences to the rest of the TCM community? Even if it takes you ten years, you should strive to become fully literate in Chinese.

Imagine a Chinese doctor of European medicine being unable to write a paper or a book in English, but claims to have a degree from Harvard Medical School? I don't want to be that person.