Jump to content
Chinese-forums.com
Learn Chinese in China

  • Why you should look around

    Since 2003, Chinese-forums.com has been helping people learn Chinese faster and get to China sooner. Our members can recommend beginner textbooks, help you out with obscure classical vocabulary, and tell you where to get the best street food in Xi'an. And we're friendly about it too. 

    Have a look at what's going on, or search for something specific. We hope you'll join us. 
ParkeNYU

Honwenese (漢苑話) Conlect

Recommended Posts

ParkeNYU

Honwenese (漢苑話) is a constructed Sinitic topolect that arose from an artificial system of character readings (漢語苑音), itself having been wrought from the Song Dynasty rime tables, incorporating elements of modern topolectal phonologies and rime reflexes. While it resembles an admixture of standard Cantonese and several dialects of Mandarin and Hakka, my intention was to attempt to recreate what Modern Standard Chinese would or could have sounded like without the Jurchen (Jin), Mongol (Yuan), and Manchu (Qing) invasions (versatile and subjective interpretation was obviously necessary). In other words, it's essentially a form of Song Dynasty court speech modernised through the phonological filters of Cantonese and several prestige dialects of Mandarin and Hakka, reflecting an amalgamation of the literary registers (文讀/讀音) of the mainline Sinitic topolects. In the modernisation process, no sources earlier than the Sui Dynasty 切韻 or later than the Qing Dynasty 康熙字典 were recognised, the primary source being the Song Dynasty 韻鏡. This system is an evolution of my earlier ParseRime Late Middle Chinese reconstruction, notation, and input method.

 

Phonology

Etymology

Dictionary (Standard Chinese)
Dictionary (Honwenese Extension)

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

To San Francisco from the Republic of China

Textbook Sample (Mandarin & Honwenese)

 

Shishǐ Shig Sa Sá

Shegshit shisǎ Shishǐ, shǐ sa, shěi shig shib sa.
Shishǐ shīshī shek shǐ shǐ sa.
Shibshī, shek shib sa shek shǐ.
Shǐ shī, shek Shishǐ shek shǐ.
Shǐ shǐ shǐ shib sa, shǐ shí shèi, sá shǐ shib sa shěi shèi.
Shǐ shib shǐ shib sa shi, shek shegshit.
Shegshit ship, shǐ sá shǐ shik shegshit.
Shegshit shik, shǐ shí shì shig shǐ shib sa.
Shig shī, shí shik shǐ shib sa, shid shib sheg sa shi.
Shì shek shǐ sǎ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Site Sponsors:
Pleco for iPhone / Android iPhone & Android Chinese dictionary: camera & hand- writing input, flashcards, audio.
Study Chinese in Kunming 1-1 classes, qualified teachers and unique teaching methods in the Spring City.
Learn Chinese Characters Learn 2289 Chinese Characters in 90 Days with a Unique Flash Card System.
Hacking Chinese Tips and strategies for how to learn Chinese more efficiently
Popup Chinese Translator Understand Chinese inside any Windows application, website or PDF.
Chinese Grammar Wiki All Chinese grammar, organised by level, all in one place.

roddy

I've not given up. How about this?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

For now, this project is merely a sound system (like 老國音, which didn't specify a topolect, but rather a set of sounds with which to pronounce characters). I'm still deciding between Modern Vernacular Chinese (白話文 as opposed to 文言文) and Modern Literary Chinese (淺文言 as opposed to 深文言). Perhaps both?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hofmann

FYI the proximal demonstrative pronoun now written 這 was probably a rewriting of 者. It was never pronounced 疑變切.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

I thought that 這 was a commonly mistaken way to write 遮 (zhê), but Wiktionary isn't exactly authoritative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

The 洪武正韻牋 and 分韻撮要 both agree that the 白話文 meaning of 這 is a perfect rime with 蔗 (之夜切), so I have changed this secondary reading to 'zhè'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LinZhenPu

I don't understand how to use the information you've provided to pronounce characters according to your system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

There are two methods:

 

1) Once you've learned how to pronounce the 苑音字母 spellings using the provided System Overview, you can use the Common Character List that I've provided to learn the readings of each character one by one.

 

...or...

 

2) You can look up the Late Middle Chinese values of a given character in the 韻鏡 (or otherwise easily convert them from the corresponding Early Middle Chinese 切韻, 廣韻, or 集韻 values), and then use the provided System Overview to convert these values into 苑音字母 readings, which you can then pronounce by looking at the IPA equivalents on the same document.

 

The 苑音字母 is mostly based on Hanyu Pinyin and Jyutping, so it's very intuitive (and more consistent). Each character-reading is directly descended from Middle Chinese (no exceptions). This allows the readings to be quite predictable, even if you only know some limited combination of Mandarin, Cantonese, and/or Hakka. I've found that my friends who understand both Mandarin and Cantonese can understand what I say 9 times out of 10 without any prior preparation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LinZhenPu

Well now you've got me thinking about the practical benefits your artificial dialect potentially provides.

 

So it's a handy code language to speak with friends who understand both Mandarin and Cantonese because it's only intelligible to those who understand both languages? People who only speak Cantonese or only speak Mandarin won't understand enough to get the gist of what you're saying?

 

Hey, I guess it also could be a way to practice Mandarin and Cantonese simultaneously, theoretically halving the time you need to invest to maintain what you've learnt in both languages if you're at the same level in both. Could have a niche benefit with some foreign business people?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

People who can only speak Cantonese might still understand a fair amount of it, but I haven't done any official surveys yet. I suppose that it could serve as a code, but more importantly, it could act as a neutral Chinese language for period pieces set in Ancient China, a neutral means of reciting ancient poetry and song lyrics, or even just as a way to render names and terms in Chinese culture more neutrally (e.g. 風水 as Fuŋshuí and 長衫 as a chōŋsham). I had devised an older, more topolectically inclusive sound system as well, but Wényîm is more readily intelligible to speakers of most modern Chinese languages (Min and Wu being the big exceptions).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LinZhenPu

Maybe you could design a dialect that's 50% intelligible for Mandarin speakers and 50% intelligible for Cantonese speakers and so understandable only by people who have learned both or the dialect itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

That's more or less what this is, but with Hakka and Middle Chinese thrown into the mix. I did attempt to design a dialect that was situated perfectly between Mandarin and Cantonese, but the problem was that there are many cases in which one must choose one interpretation over the other, and without Middle Chinese acting as a neutral arbiter, there is no fair choice that one could make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LinZhenPu

Interestingly, the line you wrote in Roman alphabeticals looks remarkably like Vietnamese. Not that I know much about Vietnamese.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

It's probably because I implemented the circumflex, which is rarely used in Hanyu Pinyin (only in the ê of 誒). The other diacritics are also used in Hanyu Pinyin as tone marks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hofmann

Vietnamese has a syllable structure like Middle Chinese, i.e. some simple initial (maybe an affricate), a nucleus that might also have /w/ and/or /j/ next to it, and final nasal consonants /m/, /n/, /ŋ/ and the 入聲-like unreleased  /p̚/, /t̚/, /k̚/.

 

This constructed variety (or whatever) is based on Middle Chinese, and the way ParkeNYU spells it (with spaces between every syllable) resembles Vietnamese orthography.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

That is indeed true, and in my opinion, Pe̍h-ōe-jī (for Taiwanese Hokkien) looks even more Vietnamese in that regard. I don't really have strict rules concerning spacing and capitalisation (yet), since the system is mostly intended to annotate or digitally input Chinese characters. Since, as I mentioned above, I would also like to use it to neutrally name Chinese terms, these spacing and capitalisation issues must be ultimately addressed either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LinZhenPu

My Chinese name, 林振蒲,sounds good in Mandarin but a bit strange in Cantonese (something like mu sen po, like     木森破 in mandarin! lol). What would it sound like in your Wenyim dialect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParkeNYU

林振蒲 Līm Zhìn Pū (/lim˧ ʧin˥˧ pʰuː˧/)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LinZhenPu

So much more similar to the Mandarin pronunciation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hofmann

Maybe someone read it wrong. It's /lɐm˨˩ tsɐn˧ pʰou˨˩/ in Standard Cantonese, although I'd say /tɕɐn˧/.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and select your username and password later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Click here to reply. Select text to quote.

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...