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Pall

Transcription table according to the endings to learn characters

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Pall

The idea is the same that I wrote about earlier. Since phonetic component is not present in all characters (and even if it is, it doesn't reflect tones), it would be very helpful to arrange characters in a table according to their transcription to learn them more effectively. Further, it would be good to memorize the most used characters in advance in order to concentrate later mainly on learning the meaning of words and grammar instead of learning the graphics. Still further, if such table was memorized, it would be easy to add new characters once the basis is created and fixed in memory. And at last, the possible number of characters,  which one may encounter after passing the milestone of the HSK 5 (2,500 words or 1,700 characters totally)  is not as great as it may seem, 20,000 most used words are based on only 4,500 characters. So, one can expect to add some 1,500-2,000 new characters even if he goes far ahead. 

 

But the problem is that the table, which I proposed to use earlier, is rather complicated to learn. What can be done to improve the situation? I can see two things to do. 

 

First, instead of the table organized according to the initial sound of syllables (a, b, c, ch, ...) one should learn the table arranged in accordance with the endings (-a, -an, -ang, ...) . Within these sections the order is according to the first sound, of course. It's much better, because -ai , -bai, -cai, -chai, etc sound very alike, and to remember their first sounds is not as difficult, as to memorise the succession of syllables in the previous table like cha, chai, chan, chang, chao, etc.  Within syllables there are also tones in both tables, of course. Even this simple reorganization will have big effect.

 

Second, it would be good to find an easier  way to remember the suquence of syllables in this table, than the diverging formulas that I proposed earlier. I came to a conlusion, that it could be done without big effort if instead of pinyin the table was in Cyryllic mupin. Because due to the utmost flexibility of Russian any suquence of syllables could be remembered basing on a not complicated formula (a phrase) , linking their first letters. And even numbers of tones could be comprised. In mupin some Russian letters are nor used, and they could be reserved for showing tones. Say, 'з' could serve to show the first tone, 'в' - second (Russian word "второй" means "second"), 'ж' for the third tone (a complicated letter alike the tone is) , and 'щ' for the fourth. There could be some adjectives in the formulars, beginning with these letters.  I belive such construction can hold in memory the whole table rather easily (compared to the former proposal). 

 

I rearranged the Pinyin vs Mupin table according to the endings of the syllables. Please, find it in the enclosure. Now there are 34 sections in the table. Cyrilic letters in the transcription correspond to latin ones rather directly: a - a, b - б, c - ц, etc. But in Russian there is no such sound as 'ŋ', therefore 'ng' is shown in mupin as the combination 'нъ'. The letter 'ъ' is never used in the end of words in modern Russian (it was the case only before 1917), and there will be no misunderstanding. Also, there is no such sound as 'w' - in mupin it is given as 'ъу' . Such combination of letters is impossible in Russian, so there will be no confusion again. In some cases in mupin more variants are used for the same symbol of pinyin, but it's very logical. 'ы', 'и' and ' ё ' mean ' i '. It may be surprising. But just listen how ' i ' sounds, for example, in "liu" and "liao", the sound is quite different. That's why in mupin they are "лёу" and "лиао" . Pinyin is just an approximation of natural sounds of Mandarin, and in some cases mupin may be even better approximation. But even if it's not so, one, who has learnt phonetics basing on pinyin, would not spoil it if he used mupin just to remember the characters in the table. 

 

In addition, in this table I showed the main vowel in diftongs, one above which the tone symbol should be, in bold. By the way, it never can be one of the letters with diacritics. There are only two of them in Russian, ё and  й. However, still there is a problem if to use tone symbols above the syllables, as it was mentioned by imron, because the thrid tone is the same as the diacritic in й. But if such soft was developed, the third tone could be shown differently, for example, with   ° .   

 

I"m going to make such mupin based table with all the formulas linking the lines. As soon as it is made I'll upload it here. 

Endings structured pinyin vs mupin tabel.docx

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Tomsima

I'm sure I've said this before, but just use bopomofo if you dont like the way pinyin uses letters to represent different sounds in different syllables. or you can use mupin, but for students whose first language is not russian, this is basically useless in the face of overwhelming amounts of study materials that use pinyin, and don't work as accurately as bopomofo taught by a Chinese teacher. if it works for you though, i guess go ahead, good luck

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Pall
10 hours ago, Tomsima said:

I'm sure I've said this before, but just use bopomofo if you dont like the way pinyin uses letters to represent different sounds in different syllables. or you can use mupin, but for students whose first language is not russian, this is basically useless in the face of overwhelming amounts of study materials that use pinyin, and don't work as accurately as bopomofo taught by a Chinese teacher. if it works for you though, i guess go ahead, good luck


Thank you for your advice, but I'm quite happy with pinyin as transcription to learn Mandarin sounds. I've learnt them using pinyin, and satisfied with the result. But I want to remember successions of the first sounds in the table as in the example below. In pinyin it's very difficult. But if I use instead of it mupin, it'smuch seasier thanks to the flexibility of Russian. Chuan is чуан, duan - дуан, guan - гуан, huan - хуан, ... Now I can crate a formula linking all these sounds in the given order, and also accounting for the tones: чуан1, чуан2, дуан3, дуан4, гуан1, гуан3, гуан4, хуан1,хуан2, хуан3. I just a minute ago created a formula, connecting all the information. The title reflects the ending of the syllable , the part in bold (-uan, -уан).


У АНИ
Чествовали со звоном четыре воскресенья дорогую женщину, девушку щеголеватую. Главное завершили горячее и жирное глотать щепотью. Хотя звала хозяйка возобновить хруст желваков

 
Every second word shows the tone (without conjunctions and prepositions), underlined, other words - first letters of the syllables. The formula in translation looks like that: 

AT ANNA'S

We honored with the clinking of glasses four Sundays a dear woman, a dapper girl. The main thing is that we finished swallowing hot and greasy food with a pinch. Although the hostess called us to resume the cracking of the jaws.

It's imp[ossible to do that in English, and as I guess, in the predominant number of other languagues. This is the reason I have to resort to mupin, based on Russian Cyrillic.

new table.png

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Pall

Alphabetic order will be different, of course: гуан1, гуан3, гуан4, дуан3,  дуан4,  хуан1,хуан2, хуан3, чуан1, чуан2.  That was just a random example to show how it works.

Edited by Pall
grammar

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suMMit

I havent read through your entire posts because they are pretty complicated. I noticed that you seem to be trying to group character by like phonemes but different tones. This for me personally, would lead to mass confusion when speaking. I like to think of these words as not having any connection.

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Pall
On 10/8/2019 at 5:38 AM, suMMit said:

I havent read through your entire posts because they are pretty complicated. I noticed that you seem to be trying to group character by like phonemes but different tones. This for me personally, would lead to mass confusion when speaking. I like to think of these words as not having any connection.

 

Your own experience is important, of course. But I think, such grouping will accelerate learning in the future, when the number of new characters will grow significantly, and one will begin to confuse them more and more. To keep them in order in such mode in one's memory might  be helpful.

 

By the way, today I read about one more proof that this approach was reasonable. In China one of the most popular Chinese-Chinese  dictionaries (maybe even No 1)  is a dictionary of 新话。 I don't know it's exact title, but these two characters must be present in it. That dictionary includes 6,000 characters, no words. It means, I think, that even for natives learning characters apart from learning words is a very acute need. And I just try to find a way to do it with less effort.
 

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Pall

It's interesting, that learning and remembering a number of most used characters sounding the same is easier, that learning and remembering only one of them. It's not an exaggeration really. The reason, I think, is confidence that the possibility to meet a new character with the same pinyin within a certain horizon in the way from common to specific is at minimum. I can compare it to learning irregular verbs in English. For example, you're in the very beginning of it and you meet the verb 'to go'. "O, it's fine, now I know a very useful verb". Then you see 'went' and found out that it is 'to go', but in another form. You're disappointed, learn the new form and go ahead. But soon you encounter 'gone'. "How many more times! " Further the same happens to 'to forbid', which has four variants. "O, no! I should do something with that." And you decide every time to check firstly if the verb is irregular, and if it is, to learn all forms in advance. Or even to learn a list of irregular verbs. I don't see much difference between these two cases despite the fact that one concerns phonetics and the other grammar. It's confidence in both, which makes you feel better. 

In addition, there is an opportunuty to compare the characters to one another within the group, it also helps to remember them.

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