chrix Posted November 23, 2009 at 02:32 PM Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 at 02:32 PM I'm looking for lists of words where within Standard Putonghua there are meaning differences depending on whether or not qingsheng or erhua occurs. For instance: - 东西 dōngxi "thing" vs. dōngxī "West-East" - 花儿 "flower" huār vs. 花 huā "spend" (erhua is trickier, because often variants without it can occur as well, so I'd say cases, where the erhua variant is restricted in meaning compared with the one without) Feel free to add your own examples here, but I'd also welcome links to any lists useful for the Chinese learner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted November 23, 2009 at 03:03 PM Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 at 03:03 PM Here's one: you can 画 a lot of 画儿 地方 is also a word with 2 different meanings, depending on whether the 2nd syllable is qingsheng or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Horhe Posted November 23, 2009 at 03:43 PM Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 at 03:43 PM (edited) Sorry, my bad, completely forgot about translations. The definitions are those given in the bilingual version of the 现代汉语词典 published by FLTRP. 反正 fan3zheng4 = 1) restore things to order, put things on the right track 2) (of troops or personnel) come over from the enemy's side (my explanation, as the English one isn't quite clear = enemies or personnel coming over to your side to fight/work for you) fan3zheng or fan3zheng4 = it is an adverb indicating 1) the same result despite different circumstances 2) indicating certainty or resolution 反叛 fan3pan4 = (verb) to rebel, to revolt, to betray fan3pan or fan3pan4 = (noun) traitor, renegade, rebel 本事 ben3shi4 = source material, original story (of the themes of literary works) ben3shi = skill, ability, capability 自在 zi4zai4 = free, unrestrained zi4zai = comfortable, at ease Edited November 23, 2009 at 04:07 PM by Don_Horhe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 23, 2009 at 03:53 PM Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 at 03:53 PM It'd be great too, if you could provide the translations at the same time (as some examples are two words, the average reader will not find them in their dictionaries). Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 23, 2009 at 04:24 PM Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 at 04:24 PM I've found a minimal pair of the different sort: 热闹 "lively" appears on both lists of qingsheng words (as rènao) and erhua words (as rènàor). So it can be used either way ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Horhe Posted November 24, 2009 at 04:23 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 04:23 AM A new pair I learned today: 滴答 di1da1 is an onomatopoeia = tick-tack, drip, tick-tock, the sound of dripping water or a clock. It can be reduplicated as di1da1di1da1 or di1di1da1da1 di1da is a verb meaning 'to drip' as in '他脸上的汗水直往下滴答 - Sweat dripped down from his face'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atitarev Posted November 24, 2009 at 04:32 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 04:32 AM Not sure if this is what you need but you can include all words ending in -子 (-zi) suffix as mandatory 轻声 (qīngshēng). Many cases where characters are repeated - 看看吧, the 2nd character is neutral. The rules apply to the Taiwanese Mandarin as well. 今儿 means today in Beijing. Is 今 still used in the meaning of "now"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jive Turkey Posted November 24, 2009 at 06:03 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 06:03 AM Interesting question from the OP. I once started to work through the PSC list of words that must be pronounced with a neutral tone with the ABC dictionary to see how many were half of a minimal pair. Why did I do this? The reason given by teachers and PSC people for why the neutral tone is heavily emphasized in testing and teaching is that it has communicative function. I wouldn't deny that, but the neutral tone can't possibly be that damn important considering that a whole lot of educated people speak without it, and an equal number seem to pronounce words with a neutral tone when, according to the standard lists, they should not. I got through about three pages of the list, got bored and quit. From what I did work through, it seemed that if you exclude grammatical morphemes like zi and ba (which even most southerners pronounce neutral anyway), and just count the ones with neutral lexical morphemes, then well under half of the words on the list are half of a minimal pair in which you would need to pronounce the word with a neutral tone to distinguish meaning. It seems to me that in many places, these pairs would just be pronounced as homphones, and that listeners are not at a loss since meaning can be easily determined by context. I'm sure that a descriptive linguist has compiled a complete list. Don't bother asking a teacher about it, though. The response I have always gotten was akin to accusing me of subverting the Chinese state. Most teachers seem to be programmed to accept what has been identified as "standard" without any critical thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:20 AM Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:20 AM 今 jīn is used in formal contexts, it's a borderline case, same as 明儿 míngr "tomorrow". 亮儿 liàngr "light (noun)" is another one, I think, since without er, 亮 liàng means "bright". Also, it's not true that ALL words ending in 子 have the neutral tone. I have another minimal pair here: 庄子 zhuāngzi "village, hamlet" vs. 庄子Zhuāngzǐ "Zhuangzi the Daoist philosopher" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atitarev Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:27 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:27 AM Chrix, I specifically added -suffix,meaning only words where 子 is a suffix,not a component. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:43 AM Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:43 AM Actually you could argue that the ZI in 孔子 孟子 庄子 is a suffix of some sort as well. Though the basic rule seems to be in Mandarin that suffixes are neutralised... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:59 AM Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 11:59 AM Thanks for all the examples so far, keep 'em coming ! JiveTurkey, it could be that they don't have so much differentiating function as rather delimitative function, just like the pitch accent in Japanese. So it wouldn't be primarily for distinguishing minimal pairs but rather for signaling word boundaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted November 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM JiveTurkey, it could be that they don't have so much differentiating function as rather delimitative function, just like the pitch accent in Japanese. So it wouldn't be primarily for distinguishing minimal pairs but rather for signaling word boundaries. And thank Heaven for that! I do find that the occasional use of qingsheng (like in Beijing) helps the flow of the sentence, and also makes it easier for me to make the sentence flow when I'm speaking. In general, the lack of word boundaries is one of the most difficult thing when learning spoken Chinese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 24, 2009 at 05:14 PM Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 at 05:14 PM (edited) I think I have another one: 托儿 tuōr meaning either 1. 避粘子 "a swindler's accomplice" or 2. 托子 "base, support (as in "vase holder") and tuō'ér "childcare" as in 托儿所 Edited November 25, 2009 at 02:40 PM by chrix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyqueen Posted November 27, 2009 at 12:52 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 at 12:52 PM I dont know if 认识 "to know" with neutral tone counts. There are several ren shi with another meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:02 PM Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:02 PM so 认识 rènshì and 认识 rènshi would have a different meaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyqueen Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:05 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:05 PM I think I may have misunderstood it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrix Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:12 PM Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:12 PM We can of course broaden the scope of this thread. I think what you brought up are also minimal pairs linguistically speaking.. (But I would propose to keep it to relatively commonly used words). So what are the words that are pronounced rènshì? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyqueen Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:32 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 at 01:32 PM I misunderstood what you were looking for. Apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Horhe Posted November 27, 2009 at 02:04 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 at 02:04 PM I don't think 认识 is a possible/correct word with pronouncing the tone of the second syllable. Which is shi2 BTW, not shi4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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