Stroke Order For 忄

[Jose]

The latest topic on stroke order (火) has reminded me of some difficult cases where not all reference materials agree. One of these cases is the 忄 signific (as in 忙 and 性). Based on the similarity to 小, I have been writing it as "vertical + left dot + right dot" in the past. It turns out that this is not the correct stroke order according to the textbooks and online materials. Taiwanese sites, like this one, prescribe the correct order as "left dot + vertical + right dot". I have seen people in Beijing writing it this way too. On the other hand, nciku and the cchar.com site for Hong Kong Chinese use a stroke order that I find a bit weird: "left dot + right dot + vertical".

Is there any reason to prefer one stroke order over the other? And what would be the rationale for the vertical-stroke-last order?

[smalldog]

I guess because it's a modified form of 心 without the final stroke, so it is written with the same stroke order.

[Shi Tong]

I write it as left middle right, but then I think my stroke order for 心 is also a bit odd (I write all the dots, left to right and then the long stoke last).

[Hofmann]

Is there any reason to prefer one stroke order over the other?

1. That's how people were taught.

2. That's what people guessed; they weren't taught.

3. They're teaching, and they have to follow a standard even though they know it's wrong.

And what would be the rationale for the vertical-stroke-last order?

1. The endpoint of the vertical stroke is lowest.

2. 行書 stroke order is that way. There is often no reason for 行書 and 楷書 stroke order to be different unless the strokes are different.

[SiMaKe]

Just to add another source: McNaughton & Li ("Reading and Writing Chinese") use the left-middle-right version.

[Hofmann]

Just to add another source: McNaughton & Li ("Reading and Writing Chinese") use the left-middle-right version.

I have that book. Is the second author's surname Li or Ying?

Anyway, when introducing 忄 alone, they write left dot, right dot, vertical. When they put it with other components, they write left, vertical, right. Furthermore, they don't seem to follow any standard. Only the ROC standard writes it as left, vertical, right, but other characters in the book don't follow the ROC standard, such as those with 戈. Some characters are just wrong according to any standard and traditional calligraphy. These factors show that this book is unreliable.

[trien27]

Just to add another source: McNaughton & Li ("Reading and Writing Chinese") use the left-middle-right version.

Is it the Traditional Chinese version or the Simplified Chinese version? I've seen both.

Are you sure it's "left-middle-right"? I see that McNaughton uses a handwritten version: 丿一丨 for 忄.

I have that book. Is the second author's surname Li or Ying?

The authors are William McNaughton & Li Ying, assumingly the last name would be Li, but it could also be Ying. Unless it's written in Chinese, otherwise, there's no way to confirm it. Some websites cite the name as "Li Ying" and others state it as "Ying Li".

[Don_Horhe]

Wenlin gives a stroke order of left dot, right dot, vertical, and that's how I was taught, although I've always written it vertical stroke, left dot, right dot (it just felt easier) until recently, when I decided to stick to the norm.

[skylee]

On the other hand, nciku and the cchar.com site for Hong Kong Chinese use a stroke order that I find a bit weird: "left dot + right dot + vertical".

Is there any reason to prefer one stroke order over the other? And what would be the rationale for the vertical-stroke-last order?

This is how I write it. Actually the right dot is not a dot but a dash. So left dot/vertical + dash + long vertical through the dash. I was taught to write it this way. Which reminds me that I was also taught to write the upper part of 學 from left to right, only to be told decades later that I was wrong. :blink:

[flow]

there are endless numbers of different recommended / prescribed / popular strokeorders. imho it is not so important to follow ‘the one and only’ strokeorder, but to find a reliable and good source on his topic, learn those and apply consistently, and then, when writing skills have matured a bit, put in your own variations. the result should alwas ‘look good’ and ‘feel good’.

also of interest might be the observation that a fair number of strokeorders common in japan are really counterintuituve for a chinese; for example, in japan, people write 田 as 丨

[SiMaKe]

I have that book. Is the second author's surname Li or Ying?

While not absolutely definitive, the spine of the book does say McNaughton & Li.

Anyway, when introducing 忄 alone, they write left dot, right dot, vertical. When they put it with other components, they write left, vertical, right.

Not withstanding the comment about inconsistency elsewhere with the ROC standard, their two presentations of this one "character" don't appear to be necessarily inconsistent. When they present it as a singular entry (but still referred to as not a standalone character), it is dot-dash-vertical (a little like 午 but without the crossbar and with the vertical traversing the dash). This seems consistent with common stroke order guidance. A comment coupled with this item merely says that the dot-vertical-dot is the form it often takes when printed - and provides no suggestion about stroke order. So the singular presentation is substantively different than the radical presentation.

Is it the Traditional Chinese version or the Simplified Chinese version. I've seen both.

Traditional.

[flippant]

I've always written it as left dot, right dot, vertical stroke. First off, it made it look prettier when I was just starting out, and secondly, it was marginally faster. Win-win.

However, character recognition on the iPhone doesn't always get it right, which is a pain.

[renzhe]

I've always written the first vertical stroke first, and remember learning it that way. It made sense because it's easier to get the character proportions right this way.

I'm a bit surprised that there is so much variation in this case.

[anonymoose]

Learn to write like a 3-year old and you'll be OK.

[flow]

this text got truncated at the first appearance of a unicode character beyond xffff (ie beyond sixteen bits of length). i find this a bit unacceptable for a forum dedicated to chinese—i mean, a majority of chinese characters (47000 characters in cjk extensions b and c vs 27000 characters in basic cjk and cjk extension a) exists only only on those ‘astral planes’. since most but not all of them are ‘esoteric’ characters (i was just citing a single-stroke codepoint here) and you do not get a second chance to repair your text, this puts me a bit off...